|
|
Post by Lossentilien on Nov 25, 2003 17:08:02 GMT -5
Since this all seems to be such a big (off-topic  ) discussion over in The Vaults, we may as well give it a rightful home. Or two... I have absolutly no idea what happened to the other thread, but if it's still alive, let me know and we'll close this one. Anyway, what are your opinions on this? Here's a little net info. The Seven Deadly Sins.(Sins and punishments in Hell.) Pride- broken on the wheel. Envy- put in freezing water. Anger- dismembered alive. Sloth- thrown in snake pits. Greed- put in cauldrons of boiling oil. Gluttony- forced to eat rats, toads, and snakes. Lust- smothered in fire and brimstone. The Seven Heavenly Virtues.faith (or trust) justice prudence hope temperance (which means avoiding excess in all things, rather than the more recent meaning of abstinence from liquor) fortitude charity. I can't find all that much that would be of interest to most, but if you want I can post it. So, do you think they're unreasonable? Why? Talk away. Have fun. But absolutely do not tell people what to think (I doubt you would) and don't imply that someone else is wrong, no one is wrong here, we're just throwing around our ideas.  |
|
|
|
Post by Mippin on Nov 25, 2003 17:23:16 GMT -5
Oh, that's prefectly reasonable for all the Mary-sues out there.  mwahahahaha. |
|
|
|
Post by ElberethVarda on Nov 26, 2003 22:41:20 GMT -5
*is confuzzled* What are supposed to be doing exactly?
|
|
|
|
Post by Lossentilien on Nov 27, 2003 11:47:12 GMT -5
Meh, just your opinions. Whatever comes into your head, imagination people!
Foooor example, are the sins impossible to avoid and therefore unfair? What about people who don't believe in God, does that mean they're doomed to, and deseve to be tortured in Hell for thier sins? Even though they have different belief systems?
|
|
|
|
Post by Niluial on Nov 27, 2003 11:57:05 GMT -5
Yes what about us? I grew up in a Christian family... I often wondered if all the religions in the world are worshiping the same God just in their own way. I really do hate it when Christians (for example) say "Oh we are right!"... I am like I my god! How do you know? All religions have proof that they are right what is to say that the Buddhists ardent right? It just annoying me!!
I feel sorry for us none believers in the One God!! I believe that God is… ok lets not go here I will soon be known as Nilly the pagan, evil witch, new age person thingy!!
|
|
|
|
Post by ElberethVarda on Nov 27, 2003 12:22:48 GMT -5
I believe that people who don't believe in God will go to Hell when they die. And, that sins are impossible to avoid - without God's help. Everyone sins; no one cannot. But if you repent and ask God for help, those sins no longer exist. God wipes your record clean when you are sincerely sorry.
Note- Although I did not put the words "I believe" at the begging of each sentence, I mean it like that. It's just too much work to type it all the time. ;D
|
|
|
|
Post by Lossentilien on Nov 28, 2003 10:59:51 GMT -5
Well surely for a religion that preaches forgivness and understanding, that can't be fair to persecute people who do not believe? What about those who know nothing of your God? Is it fair to punish them for their supposed ignorance?
And as for wiping your record clean, how is that possible, if you sin, you sin. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to use God as an easy way of forgivness. You have a history, and you ought to remember the good and bad things you've done, regardless. The possibility of having all that taken away seems extremly unrealistic, what would we be without them? And if you have the memory, then it can't be truly wiped clean.
Plus, what kind of sins are they? Sins can't be put in general terms, as all these emotions are what make us human. If the deadly sins were things like murder, I could understand it, but condemming someone for anger, pride or lust seems ridiculous. And if I have to pay for experiancing these things in Hell, all I can say is I'll go gladly. I won't sacrifice being able to have these emotions. I think we need these emotions. They're what drive us in all aspects of life, and to say that they're just plain wrong, I think is in itself a petty and narrow minded way to think.
If God allows people to go to Hell for just plain living, then that is possibly the worst thing of all. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have to pay for doing wrong, I'm saying that Christianity's way of thinking about it seems wrong, it's missing the big picture and focusing on trivial matters. And I for one want nothing to do with that hypocritical version of God.
I realise that this could be taken extremly badly, but I'm not talking about everyone who believes in God, I'm talking about a probably select few, who's minds have not developed fully, but still live in the past, when right and wrong were governed in a completly different way. Even though it was just as hypocritical then as it can be now.
Personally, I am an agnostic, literally- one who does not know, so not all I've said here is belief, it's all just ideas. I find the thought of belief a little too rigid, so don't take all of this as criticism, it is not meant to be harsh or the truth, it's simply an idea. I don't want anyone to tell me that I'm wrong, so likewise, I don't think any of you are wrong. If you believe what you believe, then it's real for you, and that's what matters for you.
|
|
Helkster
Meldielto
My dad is going to kick your ass!
Posts: 94
|
Post by Helkster on Nov 28, 2003 16:43:36 GMT -5
Okay, I'm an atheist. *ducks*
You know, I had this revelation lately. God is an atheist to. I mean, he doesn't believe in the christian fate, he is just busy getting people to believe in him. So he kinda believes in himself. But ehm, about that dying and going to hell, that's total crap. There can be atheists who still don't sin. So in their life they do nothing wrong. And there are a lot of christians that do commit the sins. So you are hiding behind your faith. In god's eyes everyone is equel. He will not send someone who does not believe in him straight into damnation. He will send the people that deserve it. Or else a multiple murderer could just say that he's christian and go to heaven when he doesn't deserve it. You might think of me as ignorant, but I went to a christian school from four to 12 and I know the bible. Maybe not by heart, but I know what I am talking about. So just consider it.
Another question: If the world started with the paradise and adam and eve, how do you explain the dinosaur?
Greetings,
~Helky
|
|
|
|
Post by Niluial on Nov 28, 2003 16:44:50 GMT -5
But how do you know that the Bible is the truth? You do know that the Bible has been passed down. What happens to stories that get passed down… they change! People add a bit here put in a bit there, its sad! And when the priests put the Bible together they got rid if some one the books because they contradicted with the other books in the Bible! How can they do that? What happens if the books that are in the Bible actually contradict with the ones that were thrown out. I just don’t get how one can just throw out books.
Second there is no proof that Adam and Eve existed! How do you know that the Bible wasn’t using symbols? It may have just been a little story that ‘God’ wanted to tell to teach about morals. And let me not even get started on the tree of knowledge and the tree of life! And why weren’t we allowed to eat from it? Didn’t god want us to see the truth? And if God knew that Adam and Eve were going to be tempted then why on earth did he put the trees there? God knew that they were going to eat from the tree because God knows everything that is going to happen, or so they say. So why the hell did he put it there if he knew we were going to end up that way.
And I agree with Lossie what about those feelings, those natural instincts we have? I want to live a life where I learn and I would hate for it to just be wiped out! A life with out those emotions would be a life not worth living!
Man existed when dinosaurs were around and in the 'big flood' they were wiped out!
|
|
|
|
Post by GaladrielOlden on Nov 28, 2003 17:58:48 GMT -5
I think that's terribly harsh. So, I'm going to burn forever because I think that all religion is bull, to some extent? But what if I lead a good, useful life, (not that I'm planning to)? Does that mean anything at all?
-Menelien
|
|
|
|
Post by ElberethVarda on Nov 28, 2003 18:13:47 GMT -5
Of course christians sin. I never said that they didn't. Christians are far from perfect. And in God's, it's true, everyone is equal. All humans are sinners, and God's standard is perfection, like he is. But christians are forgiven sinners.
You make it sound as if God doesn't know what is in your heart. If someone professes to be a christian, but doesn't believe it, they are no christian. So they won't go to heaven. And no one deserves to go to heaven. Only people who are perfect can go to heaven, and absolutly no one is perfect. So, if you ask God into your heart, and you mean it, and you try to grow with his help, you'll go to heaven.
I know that the Bible is true because there is proof! They make all sorts of prophecies in it and all of them come true one way or time or another. And they aren't general prophecies like "There will be a war in the next ten years" or something like that; they are specific.
Like I've said before, God has a plan for the world, and for each of His children. Our ways are hardly ever His ways, but it comes out to being best for for His children. I'm not saying that the best is fun, often it's painful. But He does it to draw us closer to him. I have real life experiences that show that.
I'm not done, but I'll be back.
|
|
|
|
Post by GaladrielOlden on Nov 28, 2003 18:24:16 GMT -5
Meh... I can't even articulate how much I dislike that statement. Nothing against you, of course, I've heard the same words from people I'm friends with, even. But... it's utterly one-sided. I've heard the same thing from Jews, Arabs... and, of course, more Christians. All people are people. Just the fact that you have certain beliefs should not mean anything in the grand scheme of things. And whether you're going to Hell or Heaven, if you believe in them, is certainly something important "in the grand scheme of things." Basically, Helky said it all: -Menelien |
|
Arien
Meldielto
Posts: 28
|
Post by Arien on Nov 29, 2003 3:35:48 GMT -5
(After being away for 6 months........  .....I saw this discussion on Menelien's xanga.....I err couldn't help myself.) I have something to add: " Religion is the opium of the people." - Karl Marx This is soo true...but only to some extent. Im not an atheist, I am a Roman Catholic.....(with some Hindu influence......strange I know), but some of the stuff that they come out with is a load of er....yeah. So I am probably wrong in calling myself a Roman Catholic, but hey. I agree with most of the stuff, and some I don't understand. But I have the rest of my life to figure out that. And also I don't think Heaven is a place, Heaven is a state of mind.... |
|
|
|
Post by ElberethVarda on Nov 29, 2003 14:06:18 GMT -5
Um...If you say so, Arien...
No, actually, it doesn't. Gos says that our good works next to His are like dirty rags. We can't get into heaven of our own accord. You have to be absolutly perfect in every way to make it into heaven alone.
And about the "Chistians are forgiven sinners", I am definetly not saying I (or any christian for that matter) am better than you- in alot of ways, I bet I'm worse.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lossentilien on Nov 29, 2003 14:14:16 GMT -5
I am so glad you quoted Karl Marx, could that be said in any better way?
I personally can't understand why educated people hold this unwavering belief in God. If you're a smart, articulate person, the best way to learn is to question. And the more you question religion, the less it fits together. I can understand people who've been conditioned to believe all this stuff, but for the thinking mind, it just doesn't add up. I have something which doesn't really relate to sins or virtues, but I think it makes a very valuble point.
"Satan was simlpy a label of convenience. Mind you, if Jesus had come back a few hundred years later, and seen what had been done in his name- the crusades, or te Inquisition, or even just a routine schism with heretics burning at the stake over a point of doctorine- he'd probably have given up on all religion then and there. The atheist formerly known as Christ. He might even have decided it would be best- or at least much easier- to corrupt and destroy the human race instead of wasting time trying to save it."
Religion is one of the most corruptive things in the world, how many wars have there been that were not started because of religion? How many people have suffered because a group of people- not God- got together and decided what was wrong and right, good and bad? There is no proof that what is in the bible is truth. If you rely on prophecy, it doesn't make that strong an argument. There have been people prophecising all through history, some have come true, some haven't. There's no way to proove that the stories in the bible weren't just made up by a bunch of power hungry loons. Or priests if you will.
|
|
.....I saw this discussion on Menelien's xanga.....I err couldn't help myself.)