Seven deadly sins, Seven heavenly virtues.

[Nuru]

Hum de dum... I don't think I'll enter into the debate, but I will put forth this beautiful quote:

'Faith is to believe what you do not see; the reward of this faith is to see what you believe.'

-Saint Augustine

[Wren]

Sorry, but I got a little lost after the first page. Going back to the first post... Where did that come from? Dante?

I haven't been brave enough to read that yet, but it's on my "Must Read" list.

I also saw a lot of people giving their opinion of sin. My thoughts are that we are born in sin, and we will die in sin. Its human nature. But that doesn't mean I can't be sorry for the bad things I've done. *rolls her eyes just thinking about it*

Its pretty nice being able to go to God anytime anywhere and ask him to forgive me. Its not exactly my goal in life to commit sins deadly or otherwise, but I do make mistakes, and I try not to make the same ones twice. Of course to be honest that doesn't always work out.

The important thing for me is that God loves me enough to forgive me, and to know that tomarrow is a new day.

[Nuru]

My thoughts are that we are born in sin, and we will die in sin.

True, Wren, we are born in sin, and that's the point of Baptism. It cleanses us of that Original Sin that we were born with.

However, we don't have to die in sin. That's why devout Catholics try their level best to get to Confession before they die, and often before their death (as nobody knows when they will die). Confession wipes out the stain of sin upon a person's soul, so if a true and sincere Confession has been made before death, the soul can't go to Hell. Then, of course, there is Purgatory, which is something Catholics do or should believe in (and, believe me, it's a consoling doctrine), but I won't go into that (now?).

So, yes, we are born with Original Sin, but, no, we don't have to die in sin.

[Nuru]

Silly me! That's what happens when you don't log in and therefore can't edit your post. Quoting from my earlier post, I said:

that's the point of Baptism.

I do mean to say, that's ONE OF the points of Baptism.



I must remember to log in from now on.

[Lossentilien]

Ok, as I'm completely oblivious to all this, what exactly is Original sin and how on earth can a baby be born into it? I don't like this whole confession thing, I mean it's pretty cool in theory, but it makes no sense, how can you be absolved for your actions just by confessing them? I may be totally and utterly wrong in my understanding of that, but that's how people talk about it.
And you say God has never let you down, but what about the people He has? Ok, I'll give you that they are being 'tested' but there are people living in parts of the whole who don't even know of your God or your sin, so where do they stand?
I also don't think it's right that God's ways are so 'far above us' It's just not fair to expect people to have blind, unwavering faith when they supposedly cannot even comprehend what they are or why they are. How can you expect people to live these lives that they don't understand?
Pfft. I'd rather reject God and be damned than keep my silence. I think that if He were a decent God, He would listen to those he created and give them the answers they need.

[ElberethVarda]

Ok, as I'm completely oblivious to all this, what exactly is Original sin and how on earth can a baby be born into it?

I'm not sure what original sin is, not being a Catholic and all. But I kind of see what she means. In the Bible is says, "Everyone who sins is a slave to sin." But then once we become a Christian, and repent, the Bible says, "You have been set free from sin..." Basically, everyone is born as a sinner. You can't change that.

Right, and every thing about "deadly sins, etc"? According to God, one sin is as bad as another. So don't worry. ;D

[Nurumaiel]

God's ways are 'not so far above us.' The Catholic Faith is the complete faith of Jesus Christ, and explains everything. It's just that there's some Catholics who were never educated in their Faith and don't know what they're talking about. But even though there are some ignorant Catholisc who do a rotten job of explaining their Faith (who knows, I might be among them), the Catholic Faith itself does have all the answers. The Faith isn't a blind Faith. Sure, you can't see God, but in the Faith you know who you are, why you're alive, etc., etc., etc.

what exactly is Original sin and how on earth can a baby be born into it?

Lossie, Original Sin is the state that we are born into, having inherited this state of sin from Adam. I posted these quotes from the Catechism on a different thread, but I will also post them here:

407 The doctrine of original sin, closely connected with that of redemption by Christ, provides lucid discernment of man's situation and activity in the world. By our first parents' sin, the devil has acquired a certain domination over man, even though man remains free. Original sin entails "captivity under the power of him who thenceforth had the power of death, that is, the devil".Ignorance of the fact that man has a wounded nature inclined to evil gives rise to serious errors in the areas of education, politics, social and morals.

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").

1018 As a consequence of original sin, man must suffer "bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned" (GS § 18).

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

Here's what is taught on Confession:

1424 It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. In a profound sense it is also a "confession" - acknowledgment and praise - of the holiness of God and of his mercy toward sinful man.

It is called the sacrament of forgiveness, since by the priest's sacramental absolution God grants the penitent "pardon and peace."

It is called the sacrament of Reconciliation, because it imparts to the sinner the live of God who reconciles: "Be reconciled to God." He who lives by God's merciful love is ready to respond to the Lord's call: "Go; first be reconciled to your brother."

1491 The sacrament of Penance is a whole consisting in three actions of the penitent and the priest's absolution. The penitent's acts are repentance, confession or disclosure of sins to the priest, and the intention to make reparation and do works of reparation.

1455 The confession (or disclosure) of sins, even from a simply human point of view, frees us and facilitates our reconciliation with others. Through such an admission man looks squarely at the sins he is guilty of, takes responsibility for them, and thereby opens himself again to God and to the communion of the Church in order to make a new future possible.

Faith, I just thought of something. I hope, I honestly hope -and I speak to Lossie as well as to any others- yes, I do hope that you don't think I'm preaching. I assure you, I am not. I'm rotten at the task and often enough preaching puts people on the defense and it can be awfully annoying. That is to say, if it's preaching in the 'preachy' sense. So, dearies, don't think I'm preaching, please, because I'm not. I have just observed that questions were asked, and I have done my best to answer them. If you don't want to hear the answers then, I beg you, please do not ask! I'm sure I'll answer otherwise.

*gasps*

Lossie!!!! How dare you, my dear? After reading numerous discussions upon this forum, I am quite shocked to hear you say that confession is pretty 'cool in theory.' Are you sure it isn't pretty 'lofty in theory?'

By the way, I was reading earlier posts, Lossie, and you said there, which I think you are saying at least partially now:

I personally can't understand why educated people hold this unwavering belief in God. If you're a smart, articulate person, the best way to learn is to question. And the more you question religion, the less it fits together.

I protest. Very well, other Christian religions seem to hold an unwavering belief in God, and that's it (I said seems to; I don't know much about Protestants). The Catholic Church teaches the religion, like I said earlier. It explains that it makes sense, why it makes sense, and if someone is really approaching the teaches with an intelligent, open mind, there will be sense. It's ridiculous to say that you found religion lacking for when you questioned it with the idea of trying to find it lacking. St. Augustine (who I quoted earlier) was raised by a holy, saintly mother, and nevertheless he went running off and joined all these different cults, jumping from one heresy to the next, and cursing the Catholic Faith. Yet he had a brilliant mind. He was one of the most intelligent men ever, and when he started question he found nothing lacking. It began to fit together, and because he was so intelligent he could see how it all worked, and now he's one of the greatest saints.

Bah humbug! You said in a different thread that you weren't intending to offend anybody, but you offended me deeply. I'll never recover from hearing you use the word 'cool.' I thought it was 'lofty' around here. *casts a reproachful look at Lossie* ;D

[Cenerue]

Lossen said: And you say God has never let you down, but what about the people He has?

God's never let anyone down who believed in Him, but if you aren't saved, you've rejected the gift God provided for you when Christ died on the cross.

In the Bible it says that Christ won't return to judge the world until EVERYONE has heard the gospel, and has decided whether to accept or reject it.

Lossen said: also don't think it's right that God's ways are so 'far above us' It's just not fair to expect people to have blind, unwavering faith when they supposedly cannot even comprehend what they are or why they are. How can you expect people to live these lives that they don't understand?


Think of it this way: I have 2 cats who I love very much. Now when they get sick, I have to take them to the vet. They hate the vet and do everything they can to get away from me- but I'm only trying to help them!
If only I could tell them what I'm doing, but they just don't have the intelligence to understand.

In the same way, we are like my cats. God does what is best for us, but we think it's all bad (I don't want to got to the vet!). God tries to help us and we fight him. He can't tell us what's going on- we don't have the understanding to accept it.

I hope that helps Lossen. God loves you, He wants the best for you! Don't reject Him, he loves you as though you were the only person on earth.

[Lossentilien]

I would like to make a formal apology for my use of the word c**l. I shall do my very best not to use this offensive word in my future posts. *nods severely*

I see what you're saying and I do understand it, but what I don't understand is why we don't have the understanding to accept what's going on. That, right there, is why I resent God.
Another thing I'd like to put out here, is that there is the arguement that people want to believe in God and heaven because they don't like the idea of dying and just ceasing to exist. I mean it terrifies me that once you die you just stop and there's nothing left of you and that ultimately you have meant nothing. But I also think that it's important to embrace this idea, even if it makes you horribly uncomfortable. I don't want any faith that I may develop to be out of fear, I don't want to believe that God loves me as though I were the only person on earth, as I'd prefer to know that I can cope with the possibility that I am utterly alone in that sense. I mean all this stuff about heaven and God and good and evil, it makes for good reading, and I'm sure a very reassuring faith, but sometimes I like to feel that terror that it is all meaningless.
I had a discussion about this with Nilly and Imzy, and I have a great respect for Imzy now as she can accept this idea that there is nothing and we are creating an intricate web of reassurance just to keep us sane.

As for God never letting anyone down who believed in Him, that really does seem strange. I believed in Him really only as a child can, but give it a few years and more pain (physical and emotional) than I think I could cope with now, I don't know what I believe.

Oh, and just dead quickly, I'd kinda like to know your stances on these heresies and other religions. What about Satanism and Wiccans?

[Cenerue]

Lossen said: That, right there, is why I resent God.

You know, in the Bible people have actually questioned God, asking why certain things were happening in their lives. My advice to you is to take your questions and concerns to God Himself. Talk to him, see what He tells you. If you look for Him, He WILL be found. Try it, before you reject Him forever. See what the real truth of it is. Think about this: what if you're wrong? Isn't it worth checking out all the possibilities? Try God, see if He's real.

Lossen said: people want to believe in God and heaven because they don't like the idea of dying and just ceasing to exist. I mean it terrifies me that once you die you just stop and there's nothing left of you and that ultimately you have meant nothing.

When you are saved and have the Holy Spirit living inside you, THERE IS NO FEAR OF DEATH. There is only a certainty of Heaven, and you can't know this feeling, this wonderful sense of certainty, unless you become saved. Won't you at least see this path as a possibility? Won't you search for God--WHAT IF IT'S ALL TRUE? What if you miss out? DON"T! Please check it out, I promise it's worth it.

[Lossentilien]

Yeah but that's the thing, I was brought up being taken to church by my grandmother (everyone else in my family either gave up their faith or simply doesn't go in for the whole worship thing) I mean, the reason there is no fear of death is because you are certain that there is a form of 'life' beyond it, but how do you know that heaven wasn't just something concocted to stop people feeling that fear of death? I mean if we all knew for a fact that there was nothing after death then we would all give up on all forms of responsibility and simply do what we wanted on the spur of the moment. I'd rather know that I can accept, even if I am terrified of it, that there may just be no meaning and no afterlife. I don't think I am missing out, and if I am, well at least I did my best to come up with an ideas in search of my answers. I'm not saying that I don't see it as a possibility, because I am agnostic, so I'm not going to say I believe in something which I can't give real evidence for, but at the same time I won't dismiss it just because it doesn't make sense to me.

[Cenerue]

Lossen asked: but how do you know that heaven wasn't just something concocted to stop people feeling that fear of death?

Until you become saved, it will never make sense to you. Once Christ comes to live inside of you, in the form of the Holy Spirit, you KNOW that there's a Heaven, and you KNOW that you're going there. There's no way for me to explain it to you. When you become saved, you also receive a joy and a peace which "passes all understanding"- no one can understand it unless they experience it. The decision is before you Lossen. It is yours to make.

[Dragoneyes]

You see, that's what gets me. You can't actually say to me "There is a heaven" and make me believe it, it's just you saying that you know there is a heaven which, with all due respects, means bugger all to me.

How am I supposed to be 'saved' when I'll only understand everything after being 'saved'?

once you die you just stop and there's nothing left of you and that ultimately you have meant nothing

That is exactly what cheers me up when I'm feeling down. One day no one will ever remember that I was horrid to my mother and complained behind my sister's back and said some harsh words. None of it will matter.

I also have a question: it says in the bible that everyone is equal (it contradicts itself elsewhere but let's forget that) but how can people born into athiest families have an equal opportunity to be 'saved' as people born into Christian families?

What I really don't understand is that my mum, who was a wonderful mother for all her slight wrong doings and a good person, has gone to hell solely because she didn't believe in God. Why am I expected to want to go to Heaven if my mum isn't there (or for that matter, any of my family)?

I just find that these concepts work only when everyone is Christian.

[Nurumaiel]

Woa, woa, hold on a minute! I'd like this whole 'saved' thing explained to me to. It's a concept I've heard of, but I've never understood it. What does it mean to be 'saved,' and how do you become 'saved?'

I likewise put forth the same question as Dragoneyes: How can a person be 'saved' when they only understand after they're 'saved?' A person wouldn't want to be saved, would they, unless they realized the danger they're in and all the good that will come out of being 'saved.' So if they can't understand it before, why would they even want to? I'm very curious about it. It seems to me that a person would realize and understand and then want to be 'saved' (though I'm still hazy about what that is). It's odd to want to be 'saved' without having an understanding of what you're doing.

Also, just because you're a Christian is no guarantee that you're going to Heaven. I've heard it proclaimed that everyone who is a Christian is going to Heaven. Not true at all! You can't just say you're a Christian or be baptised, but you have to live your life supremely as just that. You're not going to Heaven just because your state of life is Christian, but you have to be living as one. Nobody can ever KNOW they're going to Heaven, even if they live beautiful lives. They can suspect it, sure, but only God can tell the future.

Now, I don't exactly know how the Church stands on non-Christians going to Heaven or Hell, and it's something I've been looking to find the answer for some time, but I do know that it is taught that unless one is baptised they can't get into Heaven. Yet aside from the ritual Baptism of Water, there's also Baptism by Blood and Baptism by Desire. That is to say, if a person was never baptised but died for the Faith, they'd be baptised by blood, so to speak, and if they died before they could be baptised but had a sincere desire to baptised, they'd be baptised by water.

All the same, good question about your mother, Dragoneyes. It's a tough question to answer, because it involves deeply one of the 'mysteries.' The mystery of God's Justice and also the mystery of His Mercy. I'll have to check up with my Mamma on this. I know it's stated that someone who isn't baptised can't go to Heaven, but it never said they'd go to Hell, or so I think (my memory may be vague). It could be that those who weren't baptised but led good lives go to Purgatory and are afterwards admitted to Heaven. Most people will probably go to Purgatory, anyway, because you have to be absolutely perfect, without any sin upon you whatsoever to enter Heaven immediately. Lots of people hate the idea, and say it's awful, but, really, if you weren't absolutely perfect so you could enter Heaven right away, and there were no Purgatory, the only other choice would be the boot into Hell.

But Heaven, you know, is the reward of it all. It's fine to want to go to Heaven and strive every day to live a life worthy enough to get there, but the ultimate thing is to please and serve God. It's an impossibility that anyone who has served Him faithfully could go to Hell, but ideally even if a person went to Hell after serving Him all their lives faithfully, it should be their joy that He was pleased. The reward is what comes to you when you've finished the task, but the here and now that should be mainly concentrated on is doing the task. Confirmed into the Church, one becomes an official soldier of the glorious leader Christ, and their duty is to serve Him and serve Him, and not try to get the reward before it's given to them. If they're not high enough in perfection to have the strength to work just to please Him (and most people don't get to that level of perfection), he can pause for a moment and think of what's coming to him, and then plow on.

I think, I do think, that I'm going to gracefully step out of the discussion. I'm having fun (that is, I'm not dejectedly miserable for speaking with you all), I'll own up, but I feel like I'm preaching and trying to ram down your throats, 'Believe or be damned!' I'm not trying to do that (I'm rather musing through things that have puzzled me, as well), and I hate to give the impression. I don't know about others, but I at least don't look at all the non-believers and think, 'Oh, 'tis a pity they're going to Hell. Burn, my friends, for your folly!' No, rather, I like to hear just why you aren't Catholics (Protestants are wonderful, and some of my relatives are Protestants, but the Catholic Faith is the complete and whole Faith where nothing is lacking), consider your points, realize that your doubts are often enough my own doubts, and then resolve it for myself, and be just as much a friend to you as ever, and never let it once cross my mind, 'Burn, my dearies, for your wickedness! You're all going to Hell!' I've heard it before, and it's brought me to tears, so I'm not doing it myself. Pompous people who get satisfaction out of seeing people go to Hell.

Lossie, I am most grateful for your lovely apology in regards to using that hideous word. Yes, indeedy, most grateful. ;D *trails off muttering that she's not going to own up that she's guilty of it herself at times*

Also:

I'm not saying that I don't see it as a possibility, because I am agnostic, so I'm not going to say I believe in something which I can't give real evidence for, but at the same time I won't dismiss it just because it doesn't make sense to me.

Ah... *trails off into dreams about the next St. Augustine, and then looks up sheepishly* Joking, of course. But, then again, joking apart, that was the view St. Augustine in many things about the Faith before he re-became a Catholic. Study, Lossie, and research! You won't lose anything, and mayhap you'll gain something. I can't say, but research never hurts. If you're going to research, though, head for the Catholic Faith as a research on a Christian faith. Various forms of Protestantism have thrown me off one way or another, though most of what they say is more or less correct. If you're really serious about asking questions about the Faith, fetch out a Catechism, skim through it, perhaps glance through the Summa Theologia, and then ask a good priest (or if you know a good, knowledgeable Catholic, but most lay people aren't as learned in the doctrine) to explain to you what you don't understand (I'm beginning this now, because even though I'm a Catholic I want to know more about my Faith and understand it even better; I have lots of questions). If you're really serious about asking questions. If you're not, you probably wouldn't want to spend a lot of time doing something that you'll go into hoping to find fault and error. True?

[Cenerue]

Dragoneyes said: You can't actually say to me "There is a heaven" and make me believe it,

I'm not trying to make you believe anything, I'm just saying try and find out for yourself.

That's all I have to say on the matter.