Seven deadly sins, Seven heavenly virtues.

[Istawen Aeros]

Wow. Thanks to Lossie for telling me about this debate.

Anyways,

I'm just saying try and find out for yourself.

You can't find out about heaven by yourself because there is no physical evidence of it. That's why Christianity is called a faith.

Nuru, I know that you said you'd step out but I'd like verses that say you can't get to heaven unless you've been baptized. I'd also like verses about the Baptism of Desire and the Baptism of Blood.

[Nurumaiel]

Istawen,

You can't find out about heaven by yourself because there is no physical evidence of it. That's why Christianity is called a faith.

Agreed. There is no physical evidence. I don't know if it would be a true thing to say there is no evidence of any kind, but as far as physical evidence goes.

Matthew, Chap. 3, has a bit, but if you want to be specific, John 3:5 has what you want:

'Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."'

As far as Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire goes, this is what the Church teaches:

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

I am relieved. If you have asked me a question of a sort, inviting me to step back into the discussion, then it must mean I do not come off as 'preaching.' Indeed, I do not intend to be 'preaching.'

Cenerue, I am still interested in how a person would want to be 'saved' when they don't understand what it means and what will come of it. My mamma was a Protestant before she converted to Catholicism, but she did not understand this either when I asked her about it. Would you mind explaining?

[Istawen Aeros]

But if the church teaches those baptisms, surely there would be scriptures supporting those baptisms? I'm sorry, I'm just very curious.

Yes, there is no physical evidence for heaven, but for atheists who doubt the existence of it we cannot just simply show them a verse in the Bible, for they will not believe it and consider us still trapped within our delusions.

[Nurumaiel]

Oh, Istawen, you're a great one for a debate! You're more or less on my side, for I gather that you're a Christian, but you still propose questions that make me think! Very well, I shall try to answer as best I may:

Scriptural evidence of these two baptisms is that God is good and merciful, as He is always portrayed in the Bible. I wouldn't blame someone for saying He's unfair if either of the two things happened (and forgive how awfully these stories are written; I'm trying to make a point, not a work of art ):

Once upon a time, in the days when the Christians were persecuted by the Romans because of their Faith, there was a man, who was a very devout Christian. One day he was found out by some of his friends, who were pagans, and sons of the officials in the city, and after mocking him and jeering him they became very angry and picked up stones and began throwing them at him. Another pagan was standing nearby, watching, and he was in admiration of the man's courage, who would not reject his Faith when his 'friends' bid him too. And then the pagan had a change of heart, and he thought of all he had heard of the Faith, and he began to believe it was true. He stepped forward, towards the other pagans, saying, 'Hold! Please do not hurt this man further; he is already badly injured as it is.' They turned to him with jeering faces. 'What, then? Are you a Christian, too?' The pagan was afraid to answer. He found in his heart a strong desire to be a Christian, but if he admitted it they might kill him, too, and he would never have the opportunity to be baptised. But courage rose up inside of him and he said, 'Yes, I hope to be baptised as soon as I possibly can.' They laughed and said, 'Surely, you cannot be serious? Do you believe in this Christian Faith so much that you are ready to stand there and die for it?' And the "pagan" replied firmly, 'Yes, I am willing to die for it.' And he was killed with the other man. Now, when these two men came up to God to be judged, He said to the first man, who was a Christian, 'My son, you have served Me faithfully, and so come claim your reward.' And then He turned to the other man and said, 'My son, I know that you died for Me, and that you would have been baptised if you had had a chance. But isn't it a sorry pity: you didn't have a chance! Circumstances were against you, for there was no priest about to baptise you. Well then, My son, despite your heroic courage in dying for Me, and your ardent wish to be baptised, I am left with no choice but to toss you into the fire. I am sorry.' And so the Christian man went to Heaven, and the "pagan" was cast into Hell, because circumstances were against him and there was no priest about when he died for the Faith.

Awfully written story, I realize, but I think it makes my point rather well. Do you think that's how it would play out? That God would toss someone into Hell, someone who had died for Him, just because that person could not be baptised because there was no priest about?

And apply the same story to the Baptism by Desire, only modifying it slightly. What if one was just a few days away from the day of their baptism, and something happened to kill them? Do you think they'd go up to Heaven and God would say, 'Oh, I admit it: I struck you down before you could be baptised because I didn't want you up here in Heaven. You're face is a bit... ugly, to say the least. Apologies!' Oh, dear me, I think that would be quite absurd.

And I cringe to look up at the little story I just wrote, oh, but, please see that it was to make a point, not to impress everyone with my writing talents. It would have gone on and on and on if I had tried to write it well. I daresay it might be considered similar to Fabiola, or perhaps it would.

And, oh dear, I am trapped within a delusion. But, one must confess, it doesn't make one exactly unhappy, or at least I feel that way. However could I prove that God existed.... I learned it by the trees and birds, and by all of nature, for I live in a place that is almost untouched by human life. And all these trees, birds, and the gentle wind, told it to me. Oh, but I am too dramatic. If it is a delusion, it isn't an unhappy one.

[Istawen Aeros]

Mmmm, I see what you mean. See, I believe in one baptism that is a pysical work and that if you aren't baptised but are God's then it doesn't really matter. However you are calling that Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire. We just call it a different thing.

As for why you believe God exists: what you listed will not convince the heart of an atheists or non-believer unless God Himself has stirred the heart of that person to believe in Him. Thus, if the wind and the birds tell it to you, you are already saved -- leastways, that's my understanding.

[Nurumaiel]

Exactly what I am saying! How could I possibly convince an atheist that God existed when they probably wouldn't even understand it? And, really, nothing will convince an atheist (or non-believer) unless God has stirred that one's heart.

And that is not the only reason I think God exists. It was my 'proof,' so to say, instances that made it seem to me impossible that there could be no God.

And what do you mean by 'saved?'

Well, about baptism, let me clear up one thing. Just because there is such a thing as Baptism by Blood and Baptism by Desire doesn't mean you don't have to be baptised. That is to say, if every opportunity is open to you to be baptised, you can't just ignore it and think you're baptised anyway. But if you want to be baptised and it is just impossible to have it happen before you die, that is when the two 'other' baptisms are effective.

[Dragoneyes]

nothing will convince an atheist (or non-believer) unless God has stirred that one's heart.

Does this mean God chooses who will believe in him and who won't? That seems a bit unfair.

[Nurumaiel]

Perhaps, Dragoneyes, it would be better to ask Istawen, for she originally spoke of that. I do not know what her meaning is, but I think that everyone's heart is stirred in some manner or other, depending on how you interpret 'stir,' for otherwise God would pick and choose, which would be unfair. Then, of course, it is up to the individual, as we have free will and we will not be forced to believe.

[Istawen Aeros]

Whoever said that God was fair? Certianly He is fair in a divine way (how could it be unfair to say that He cannot choose whom He wants in heaven and whom He doesn't?) but it is certainly not fair to our standards.

See, when we think of a "loving" God, we think of frills and chocolates and warm fuzzy feelings. This is the farthest thing from the truth.

Dragoneyes, what I am referring to is predestination. And I hate it, but it's in the Bible so I cannot dispute with it.

Romans 8:29

Romans 9:16-26 Note that He has mercy on whom He desires.

Romans 11:5-6 Remnant according to God's gracious choice.

Galations 1:15

Ephesians 2:8

To think that we chose God is a delusion I would love to believe, however, I cannot. God called Abraham. Jesus chose His disciples -- none of them chose Him. When He calls us, it is because He has hosen us. If He did not call us, we would never seek Him out -- it is contrary to the sinful heart of man. It is God and God alone Who calls us, saves us, inclines our hearts to Him and causes us to follow Him. If we claim that we chose Him it dilutes Him and would mean that He is not really God after all. In other words, it denies His sovereignty for what we are saying is that He is up there wringing His hands, hoping that people will follow Him. It would also mean that we are, in part, responsible for our own salvation and that would detract from His glory and from Christ's work on the cross. We are dead in our trespasses, so the Bible says, and a dead man cannot choose to live.

Other instances of God choosing:

Deut. 7:6
Is 42:1
Is 45:4

I can give you others if you like.

I would like to add that when one is chosen, one is not forced to believe. That would be like saying you are forcing a jar to be thrown away, or forcing a jar to be made.

On another note on baptism, what you call Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire (which you still haven't given me scripture references for) is what is called Baptism of the Spirit.

[Dragoneyes]

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Using this example and putting aside that molded things, in general, can't speak. If I were to make a cup and, on purpose, just punch a whole in it so it will never be used and just thrown away, not only is it wasteful of potential but that cup would have a perfect right to ask me why I had decided to stick a hole in it.

I don't see how, on any level, it is fair to just not choose someone and thereby doom them to something quite undesirable. Of course, I am being short sighted in that I probably won't live more than 100 years and selfish on some levels in that I am the most important thing I have (for if I didn't have that, I wouldn't be here). But it seems to me just such a waste of potential to disregard people like that.

And then it's all explained away with things like "God works in strange ways." I don't hold with that, I like something I can understand and a concept I can grasp, which is why science, to me, makes more sense. We are not just subject to the whims of some ultimate being who may-or-may-not choose us to be 'saved'.

Sorry if I became a little disjointed and uncomprehendable.

[Istawen Aeros]

I don't see how, on any level, it is fair to just not choose someone and thereby doom them to something quite undesirable.

I would like to mention that "doom" was never mentioned in any of those verses.

I know that many of us have been taught that people will be punished in an everlasting hell, yet only has this been referred to the devil and his angels. I do not believe that all people will be punished in hell.

Maybe some of us will be punished in hell, but I do not think it will be forever, for Christ came to save the world.

[yoyogongzuo]

[quote author=firondoiel board=Theology thread=92 post=1656 time=ji notjiljThe science of love
OVER the course of history it has been artists, poets and playwrights who have made the greatest progress in humanity's understanding of love. Romance has seemed as inexplicable as the beauty of a rainbow. But these days scientists are challenging that notion, and they have rather a lot to say about how and why people love each other.Scientists are finding that, after all, love really is down to a Warhammer Online Power Leveling chemical addiction between people IF IT were a country, California would be one with more people than Canada and an economy the size of China's. Its scientists shoot, with their rockets, for the moon; its films spread Hollywood's culture around the globe; its athletes break world records; even its wines now rank with the best of France's.Ifyouwow power leveling look aroundwow power leveling at thewow power leveling men andwow power leveling women whom you can call happy, you will see that they all have certain things in common. The most important of these things iswow power leveling wow powerleveling wow powerleveling an activity which at most gradually buildswow powerleveling up something wow powerleveling that you are glad to see wow powerleveling world of warcraft power leveling world of warcraft power levelingcoming into existence. Womenworld of warcraft power leveling who take anworld of warcraft power leveling world of warcraft power leveling instinctive pleasure in their children world of warcraft powerleveling world of warcraft powerlevelingcan get this kind of satisfaction out of bringing up a family. world of warcraft powerleveling world of warcraft powerleveling Artists and authors and men of scienceworld of warcraft powerleveling wow gold wow gold get happiness in this way if their own workwow gold wow gold seems good to them. But therewow gold world of warcraft gold world of warcraft gold are many humbler forms of the same kindworld of warcraft gold world of warcraft gold world of warcraft gold of pleasure. Many men who spend their working life in the city devote their weekends to voluntary and unremuneratedAOC Power Leveling AGE OF CONAN Power Leveling toil in their gardens, and when the spring comes, they experience all the joys of having created beauty. A mother holds a cherished, inexplicable bond with her child. The path of motherhood is not an easy one and the women that walk this path should be applauded.As you all know, Mother's Day is just around the corner. For those of you who forgot, this is the day to honor the woman that brought you into this world. Don't make the same mistake that I did for so many years and buy her appliances to Warhammer Online Gold last her a lifetime of cooking and cleaning.This year, give the mom in your life a gift that show you care and love her with all your heart. Here are 10 of those potentially awesome gifts LWB-286etd7 57trdryra challenge. I know this will sound very stupid to a lot pjpGod exists. I believe with all my heart that God will prove it to you. He may not do it for a long time but I know He will. Please just do this. It can't hurt you.[/quote]