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Post by Dragoneyes on Oct 18, 2004 17:50:48 GMT -5
Murderers are fine then? Or is the end of one of those long-as-hell lists? Or possibly the beginning, it's hard to tell with the Bible.
What about those who swear at their parents, it warrants the death penalty, surely they won't inherit the kingdom of God. Actually, for the Bible, that quote is quite vague.
What really confuses me about homosexuality is what happened to the equalness of the human race? As in: everyone is equal, man and woman (could go into a debate about that one but I choose not to), no matter what country, no matter what culture. But when someone is homosexual they CAN'T CONTROL THEIR FEELINGS! Some say it's a test from God but why test some when you don't test others? That's not equal! Why cause some to live in misery because of this test and not others?
In fact, getting away from the homosexuality, no one is equal! People brought up in atheist families are going to have a harder time with Christianity than people brought up on those teachings all their lives. People born into other religions haven't a hope in hell!
There is no equality in this world, this is one of the major problems I have with religions, most of them say there is.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 18, 2004 18:55:59 GMT -5
I'll be back to talk about the homosexual aspect later, but I have to go to sleep. And very very well said Dragoneyes, bravo!  But now I leave you with the words of someone I have huge respect for. "We have become so accustomed to the religious lie that surrounds us that we do not notice the atrocity, stupidity and cruelty with which the teaching of the Christian church is permeated." ~Tolstoy |
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Post by Istawen Aeros on Oct 18, 2004 20:59:11 GMT -5
Cruelty? At least we don't have human sacrifices, kill children, and force people to our religion.
Religious lies? What exactly are those? Is the Bible a "religous lie?" Well, excuse us for believing it then. Are your beliefs a religious lie too?
The things Tolstoy mentioned is not the problem with Christianity. The problem is that it has become pharasitical. They are legalistic, they condemn things, they believe in salvation via works. We are hypocritical and we are like sawdust in the mouth. We do not enjoy life, we condemn stories that do not mention God, even though it has the virtues the Bible proclaims. *coughHarryPottercough*
Frankly, most Christians nowadays are fearful kids that fear things that go bump in the night. And things that go bump in the night are frequently not real. They go around, thinking that Melkorian demons and Satan reign supreme without even realizing that God has already won. They creep along, thralls to their false notions, instead of realizing that we are the freest people in the world and that the war is already won. They skulk like the conquered instead of striding like the victors.
Not only that, but we have become judgers. Oh no, this person watched that movie -- they are not Christians! Oh no! Husband and wife aren't sitting together in church, they're having marital problems! That family doesn't go to church! They're not true believers! And so on and so on.
We have forsaken the Law of God and that is the problem.
And yeah I don't care that this has zip to do with homosexuality.
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Wren
Meldielto
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 170
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Post by Wren on Oct 18, 2004 22:30:01 GMT -5
There does seem to be a downward trend in churches today. A trend to unite and be all encompassing. In our little town we have a "Lutheran" church which has taken this route. They no longer have morning prayer, instead they teach meditation. And its not the kind mentioned in the Bible. Its the center yourself and empty your mind sort of thing.
I rarely go to church, like the last time was proably a year ago. And while this church may have people who are judgemental, the leadership is fundamental. The pastor stands for what he believes in and he walks it daily.
I have started going to a women's Bible study, which is really challenging for me. They give us homework and Bible verses! But the challenging part is getting together with strangers. I'm really not the outgoing type.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 19, 2004 5:45:17 GMT -5
Fair enough, I respect your beliefs, this is just my vague ever changing opinion about it. www.evilbible.com/god%27s%20not%20pro-life.htm -an interesting view point. "The act of murder is rampant in the Bible. In much of the Bible, especially the Old Testament, there are laws that command that people be killed for absurd reasons such as working on the Sabbath, being gay, cursing your parents, or not being a virgin on your wedding night. In addition to these crazy and immoral laws, there are plenty of examples of God's irrationality by his direct killing of many people for reasons that defy any rational explanation such as killing children who make fun of bald people, and the killing of a man who tried to keep the ark of God from falling during transport. There are also countless examples of mass murders commanded by God, including the murder of women, infants, and children." Jesus advocates child abuse: Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: “He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.” Matthew 15:4-7 Abandon your wife and children for Jesus and he’ll give your a big reward. Jesus asks that his followers abandon their children to follow him. To leave your child is abuse, it’s called neglect, pure and simple. Matthew 19:29 Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark 7:9 A few other things about Jesus: Jesus says that those who have been less fortunate in this life will have it even worse in the life to come. Mark 4:25 Jesus sends the devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. Clearly Jesus could have simply sent the devils out, yet he chose instead to place them into pigs and kill them. This is called animal abuse. Mark 5:12-13  Jesus kills a fig tree for not bearing figs, even though it was out of season. Jesus must not be as smart as Christians would have us believe, for he was retarded enough to do something this silly. You’d think the son of god (god incarnate) would know that trees don’t bear fruit in dry season. Mark 11:13 Luke 12:47 Jesus okays beating slaves. Human sacrifice- www.evilbible.com/Ritual_Human_Sacrifice.htmI love that site. But bear in mind that when people like Tolstoy and Voltaire ("Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world.") are quoted with these things, it is not the simple idea of a 'loving God' that they are objecting to, it is organised religion. |
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Post by Istawen Aeros on Oct 19, 2004 9:56:50 GMT -5
Evil Bible -- I love how unbiased your sources are.
OT: I don't understand it and many others don't either. So I will not attempt to explain as I do not understand myself.
I don't think you understand that much of what the Bible says is metephor and imagery. Jesus would never have advocated abandoning your children because that is just...anti everything He teaches.
I don't know what translation you're using then (did you even look it up?)
Matthew 15: 1-7
Then some Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus (2) from Jerusalem and said,
2 "Why do Your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they (3) do not wash their hands when they eat bread."
3 And He answered and said to them, "Why do you yourselves transgress the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 "For God said, '(4) HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER,' and, '(5) HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH.'
5 "But you say, 'Whoever says to his father or mother, "Whatever I have that would help you has been given to God,"
6 he is not to honor his father or his mother[1] .' And by this you invalidated the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7 "You hypocrites, rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you:
He is not saying that the kids should be put to death. He is saying that the Pharisees are not obeying the laws anymore but being legalistic.
In fact, according to the Law, adulterers are to be put to death. However, Jesus didn't do that. He has released us from OT Law.
Matthew 19:29 is strictly figurative.
Actually, the demons asked to be sent there.
The preachers said that Jesus used this as a metephor for unbelievers against believers: For people shall know you by your fruit, etc. Ie, it was an example to illustrate a point. A physical parallel.
Actually, He doesn't. This is another parable where Christians are likened to slaves (not that we are slaves -- PARABLE -- METEPHOR). The ones who beat the fellow slaves (notice slaves beating slaves: "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk) will be punished -- or is that bad too? Those that know God's will and refuse to do it are not truly saved and will be punished.
I guess you forgot about the part where God stayed Abraharm's hand and gave him a ram instead to sacrifice. Issac is Abraham's son, father of the Jews.
Jesus did not kill the adulteress.
He cast out demons -- befriended a Prostitute.
He said, "Let the little children come unto me."
Please, the next time you go berating God make you sure you look at the verses in context.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 19, 2004 11:00:05 GMT -5
Or next time you could kindly read the link I give you and notice that my post was not actually my words, save the last paragraph.
I never said that what is on that website is what I believe, I simply posted the things which I wanted your feedback on, and now that you've done that with such good manners and elegance, I thank you. When I have the time, maybe I'll put something else up for your vast knowledge to clear up for me, but until then, I have a presentation to prepare on the enlightenment and scientific reason.
EDIT: Sorry that was a little too rude, I shouldn't expect you to read through the links I give you thouroughly, but that site is meant to be taken as humourous, so when you bring out the sacrcasm for something as petty as what this guy has chosen to name his site, it bugs me because it seems like you're taking cheap shots. Obviously I'm not saying I'm any better, but there is your explanation.
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Post by Istawen Aeros on Oct 19, 2004 19:49:19 GMT -5
Well, what am I supposed to think when you use the paragraphs to back up your side in rebuttal against mine? Maybe next time you could say nicely "well, look at what this site says?"
So, I guess you just wanted me to say LOL in caps? Right. Well, I don't think that insulting my God is necessarily very funny.
I never claimed that I have vast knowledge.
Basically, you have attacked Christianity rudely, called people who think homosexuality is bad bigots and almost as bad racists.
And no, I don't have time to read links thoroughly.
Actually, I was hardly sarcastic in my post at all. But I don't care. Sarcasm is not a bad thing.
I still stand by my view in that before posting other people's thoughts or whatnot, one should make sure the verses are not taken out of context.
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Post by Elentari on Oct 20, 2004 4:44:50 GMT -5
Woah, woah guys... Keep it friendly please  | tari  |
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Post by ElberethVarda on Oct 20, 2004 11:53:27 GMT -5
Although thank you, Immy, for your truthful rebuttal... You keep getting to it before me. But please, don't go as far as attacking what someone else believes, even if it is just a site. |
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Post by Istawen Aeros on Oct 20, 2004 12:02:30 GMT -5
I don't quite understand what you mean...what would be the point of arguing? And...what attacks did I do?
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Post by ElberethVarda on Oct 20, 2004 13:37:11 GMT -5
No... that was a little more towards Lossie... but whatever...
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 20, 2004 13:42:15 GMT -5
Thank you for your eloquent comments Imzy, you are in the most part right, and I'll not make the same mistake again to assume such things.
You saying 'LOL' I never expected, but I apparently wrongly assumed that you would see the tinge of humour in comments like "This is called animal abuse." I apologise, offence was not my intent.
As for attacking Christianity, well to that I would say why does it bother you, if in fact your allegiance lies with God? If I were religious it would never be the church and those teachings which mattered to me, I would go into the heart of all religions and live according to the (apparant) message of love and understanding.
And I know sarcasm is not a bad thing, hence my use of it. Hopefully it wasn't too subtle, I tend to do that.
But for my final comment, this is the one thing I 'believe', although I think that's a horrible word.
People should never be seen as evil (I know this is not your word) just because they are gay, coloured, woman, teenager, goth, punk, even satanist. I would be prefectly willing and happy to stand up for those people, I would say all this into the very face of God if I could. He is wrong if he teaches that they sin. Plain and simple, He is wrong, because he created the possibility of them to be as they are, and they cannot, no matter how much it is argued, change that.
So that is my 'belief'. You say I am insulting Christianity, but this attitude is what I personally call discriminative and unjust, and it is with this attitude (I assume you know I'm not reffering to racists and those who see gays as evil, I mean what you yourselves have said) that you are insulting me and many of those who I love. Not to mention those I don't even know.
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Post by Istawen Aeros on Oct 20, 2004 14:27:19 GMT -5
It's the same feeling you have when I "insult" (loosely mind you because I do not insult them) those you love.
Do you believe in consequances? There once was Utopia but it is now bent. There are consequences because of that: sin, murder, rape, etc. He did not create it that way, but He allowed it to happen -- I view it in the way that I allow my characters to die in my stories -- my sub creation, as it were.
We cannot change ourselves. We are all dead because of the fall. God did not lie when He told Adam that if he ate of the Tree, he would die. And we have died, we are born dead. God brings some of us to life -- His Chosen Ones -- today's Jews as it were. What happens to the others I know not -- I have a hard time believing in eternal condemnation (a few Biblical passages cause me doubt as we spoke of some time ago)...The truth of the matter is that those who go to hell would rather go to hell than to be in His light.
Are you wrong when you say that I "sin"? What's the difference between what He calls sin and what you call sin? Why, according to your point of view, is it okay for you to call what I do sin?
You definition of sin is when it hurts other people -- do you sin when you hurt yourself? Sins -- no matter how little they are, no matter how great they are -- hurt many people. In fact, they hurt One who we do not see -- they hurt God. That is why it is sin. Is God exempt from your definition of sin?
However, nothing that I can say will convince you that we are not being unjust when we call the act of homosexuality a sin (much the same as stealing is a sin --- as sin is a sin is a sin to us, whether it be a lie, a sexual sin, or whatever).
Nothing that you say to me will convince me that your relative truth is correct. You have your own code of laws -- I have mine. I am unjust when I wish to believe mine, you are viewed as tolerant -- though for some reason you view Christians with the same contempt that you say we Christians view Homosexuals, Goths, etc (true Christianity should not judge these people -- alas, we have become very pharasitical). You, and this is not meant in a bad way, are being hypocritical when you say that we should be tolerant of other people's beliefs -- except for a Christian's beliefs.
Jesus was not like that. His friends were the despised, the lowly, the people the pharasees dubbed sinners and filth.
There are many things I do not understand about God -- in many ways I do not understand why it must be the way it is -- in many things I hate the way things are.
Quite frankly God is beyond my understanding, because I am "bent" and He is not.
It is because I peer into a mirror darkly and do not understand because I am a mere mortal.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 20, 2004 16:10:32 GMT -5
Ok, this is getting a little ridiculous. I'm going to stop letting my very personal emotions getting involved here. It's unfair of me, as I am really just insulted because it's what I believe in. I should not expect you to think that it's wrong when you've been brought up believing in it. But I would like it if you could understand that I was brought up believing that this kind of attitude was unjust, and taught also to stand up against it, so you see this is in my nature. I will blindly stumble in without seeing things clearly just because of my emotions and those beliefs which were instilled in me from early childhood on the matter. My father always fought for 'good' and 'right' and was totally against any kind of discrimination, which is, as I believe, what this is. I didn't honestly expect you to change your mind, that would have been horribly arrogant of me. I have to admit, I don't understand why you ask if I believe in consequences though. I believe in manmade ones, that of law etc, but as I don't believe (or not believe for that matter ) in your God, I can't say this Utopia matters to me. I was not aware of saying you sin...My definition of sin does not make sense because I do not really believe it, so my ideas always change in regards to it, but from what you've said there, it seems like I would believe hurting one person is sin, but when I drag a razor blade across my flesh, thus hurting myself it does not matter. True and yet horriblly false. I think that God himself, 'sins' whatever that means. My meaning of it is that He cannot possibly be perfect or He would never have created the world. I never said I was tolerant. I am an admitted fattist.  My only contempt is for views of the Church which to me are foolish and seem old fashioned. But I see now that we simply come from different cultures and backgrounds. Our ideologies are too different for this matter to come to any happy conclusion. You seem to think that I have a problem with the whole of Christianity and all it's beliefs, which is just not true. Although I do find it very amusing that the word 'bent' has those double meanings. (No offence meant, I can't help being a little childish) |
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