Christianity questions

[Istawen Aeros]

God is capable of stopping such things, and I'd never say that God let a baby die just to test the parents.

Can you say Job? Wait. Job was worse because God did all that suffering to Job just to show up the devil. Not only did he loose his wealth, but he lost his kids (whom he prayed night and day for, btw), and he who did he get stuck with? His righteous prude friends and his bitch of a wife.

This is why I think there is suffering in this world:

1. God created us perfectly and then Adam screwed up. So, now there is sin (good points about the free will, btw).

2. There is a spiritual world that we don't even know exists. So, when suffering happens we're just caught in the crossfire. Kind of like Job.

[Nurumaiel]

Istawen,

With all respect, I must confess that I don't quite understand what you're attempting to say with talking about Job. Are you trying to say that God does test people through suffering, or...?

If the former, indeed, it's more than likely so. But how do we know if the suffering is specifically to test us or if we're just tested anyhow because it's hard.

I understand your first point, but I don't understand what you mean by the second:

2. There is a spiritual world that we don't even know exists. So, when suffering happens we're just caught in the crossfire. Kind of like Job.

I do hope you won't mind explaining what you mean by it.

Really, I must let myself step gracefully out of this debate, for I don't feel as if I am contributing much. Perhaps I am wholly wrong on that, but nevertheless I don't feel that way. I feel that at best (or, more appropriately, worst, oh yes, certainly worst) I am putting people on their guard and sounding like I'm preaching. Oh, and the laundry suffers, as do the birds.

[Dragoneyes]

Oh dear, I didn't know you could contribute too much to a debate.

Actually yes I did, but that's only really when you start debating with yourself which is a really odd thing and not really what you want.

I'm off topic, rambling and going.

[Nurumaiel]

Yes, indeed, it is very difficult for one to contribute too much to a debate, but it isn't hard to contribute too little. I am attempting to discern whether I am adding anything to the discussion or whether I am upsetting people because of my views and beliefs, or appear as if I am imposing those same beliefs on those I am debating with. It seems that I have mainly inspired the thread 'Protestants vs. Catholics,' which frightens me, namely because of the 'vs.' It has the potential of turning into certain parts of Northern Ireland you might stumble upon. Really, when was there competition between the two religions, or rather, when should there have been competition? It has never led to anything good in the past; I wonder if it would lead to good now.

But, as you have admitted of yourself, Dragoneyes, I am off-topic, and I think I shall also take my leave.

[Istawen Aeros]

Don't take your leave, as you are contributing.

I just get tired of hearing how God loves us and how He never tests us...granted, yes He does not technically test us be He allows us to be tested, as He did wtih Job.

Nuru, about point 2:

What I am saying is that there is a spiritual world. Take, for example, the Silmarillion. A spiritual world like that, only realer. This world that we know is a shadow. There is a battle between God and the Devil and WE get caught in the crossfire. That, I believe, is one of the reasons there is suffering in this world.

[Nurumaiel]

You know, Istawen, I get tired of hearing the same thing. All right, I don't get tired of hearing that God loves us, at least if it's presented in the right way. I'm not one to enjoy standing in crowds, shouting, 'GOD LOVES US ALWAYS! GOD IS AWESOME.' But I like to be told by the little blessings that descend upon me every day that He loves me.

And as far as testing goes... If we are tested because of a difficulty it doesn't mean the God is standing there watching us with a keen, critical eye, and that if we fail we will be scolded and reprimended and everything. In my experiences with children's sports, the lads get loved more if they fail in winning the game, because they tried their best and are in need of comfort and support. I feel fairly sure that when one fails a test that a hardship puts upon them, God is even gentler in dealing with them, because they are most likely in need of that comfort and support. Nobody likes to fail.

Alas, I think we are the Devil's primary targets in this 'war.' Which would hurt a father more: To be beaten about himself by the enemy, or see his children beaten about? Yes, the Devil picks on us, because he knows what pain it inflicts upon God.

But I'm still not altogether certain of what you mean by a spiritual world, though I understand what point you are making by it.

[Istawen Aeros]

And as far as testing goes... If we are tested because of a difficulty it doesn't mean the God is standing there watching us with a keen, critical eye, and that if we fail we will be scolded and reprimended and everything.

Did I say that, or are you just making a statement? As I said about Job. The devil wants to prove that God is wrong. God, knowing that He will win, says all right then, go ahead and test Him. Just don't kill Him. That's where Job comes into this whole thing.

Alas, I think we are the Devil's primary targets in this 'war.' Which would hurt a father more: To be beaten about himself by the enemy, or see his children beaten about? Yes, the Devil picks on us, because he knows what pain it inflicts upon God.

Here, alas, I must disagree with you. The War between the devil and His demons started long before we were made I suspect. (I really need to find the part about Lucifer in the Bible and check to make sure -- unfortunately I don't have time right now). So, even though he targets us, I do not believe that we are his primary targets.

[Nurumaiel]

No, you did not say that; I was just making a statement, considering some comments made previously.

So are you saying the war is between Satan and his henchmen? And realize it would be hard for Satan to harm anyone else besides us. He can't do a thing to God or His angels. Who does he have to hurt besides us? Who does he torture in hell besides us?

[Elentari]

Just a quick question. What is the "Catechism" that was mentioned several times on the first page?

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[Nurumaiel]

Perhaps you're referring to The Catechism of the Catholic Church?

[Elentari]

Yes, that's the one, but what is it? *is being very ignorant most likely*

I've heard before that there are contradictions in the Bible (mainly between the Old and New testaments) ut I've never acctually come across any. Do any of you know of some?

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[Dragoneyes]

Well, there are some things such as:

GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

against:

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Then things not so important as:

GEN 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.

and:

GEN 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, GEN 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

Then there's the down right trivial like:

KI1 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

and:

CH2 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen

Yes, I got these from a website. But I'd rather not go fetch a bible and search through it. The trouble with some websites though, is that they list things like "Bob had fifty sheep" and "Bob had twenty seven sheep" when actually, the bible is talking about two different Bobs. If you didn't notice, the example I used wasn't actually biblical.

[Istawen Aeros]

For the first set:

Genesis 1:25-26 was taken out of context (the it of 25 refers to creeping things, not all the world). Continuing on to verse 27:

and God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Genesis chapter 2 is like a detailed explanation of the creation of man. Thus, there is no contradiction at all, for when God made man and female the world was good, verse 27, yet the world was not good until he had made woman, Chapter 2:18. Or was that not the contradiction?

Going on.

Set two:

By sevens, the male and his female = seven pairs.

There went in two and two = they went in by fairs. The first pair of sheep, then the second pair of sheep, etc.

Set three:

There are two explanations for this:

1. Scribe's error.
2. Maybe he had a different number of stalls at a different time.

[Elentari]

Hmmm... Very interesting. Thankee Istawen.

But does any one know any contradictions in things we are taught to do, or how to act?

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[GaladrielOlden]

I used to know of a website that listed a lot of bible contradictions, and I found a few myself when I still went to my old school (a Jewish school, so we studied the torah) -- I can't remember what they are right now, but I'll ask my friend, I think he saved them. For reference's sake, as there are some people here I don't know/don't know me, I'm an atheist Jew. Yes, there is such a thing.

-Menelien