Christianity questions

[ElberethVarda]

I made this thread a long time ago, then closed it, so I'm going to go for it again. Go ahead and ask me anything, and I'll try to answer to the best of my abilities. But then, I'm only human, so if I don't know, I'll try to find out.

[Cenerue]

So I assume you are a Christian? How would you answer this question:

Why does God allow suffering?

[Elentari]

Ooo, I did that in Religious Studies last year...

I can't remember all of the argument right now (but I''ll look it up when I get home), but here's what I can remember:

Suffering doesn't have to come from God. It comes from within ourselves and occurs by our actions, which God doesn't stop because he gave us free will. Suffering also comes from the Devil.

hmmm... I really should look that up and make things make sense more...

| tari

[Ophelia]

I have heard many questions like these of "Why does God allow , terrorism , little children die , etc.." but you know what ? Why blame God in everything , as Tarser said . This I can not understand

O

[Lossentilien]

Well I think there's a definate feeling these days that we've been abandoned by God, obviously I am not speaking for everyone, so those of you who have that amazing ability to have blind faith in Him, please please don't get insulted, (I tend to go off on rants because I don't get this whole Allmighty thing. That doesn't mean I do or don't believe, but still, I do think that people today have this feeling of resentment.
But anyways, my question I'll forget, so I'm posting it now to save me staring at my screen in a few days time racking my brain for it.
I just want to know what exactly the religious view of the Devil is, because I've read a lot about his name being translated to 'The Accuser' which to me (and from what I've read) seems like a good thing. I'm confused, so please go ahead, sort 'fact' from 'fiction' if such a thing is possible.

~Loss, who has a funny feeling she's gone and unintentionally insulted people yet again...

[Ophelia]

Whoo hoo .... A tough question .
Some say that the Devil is a fallen angel And there are some other "bright thoughts" . I`m right now studying the bible , though not the part where it`s said about the devil etc .
But I`ll try to find something (if I ever get anything to call spare time) .

Ophe

[Cenerue]

He's called the "Accuser" because he stands before God day and night and accuses us, saying that we don't deserve God's love or mercy. So it's really not that good.

Elentari said:
Suffering doesn't have to come from God. It comes from within ourselves and occurs by our actions, which God doesn't stop because he gave us free will. Suffering also comes from the Devil.



That's a pretty good answer, thanks!

[Cenerue]

The Devil's name, Lucifer means "Angel of Light". God created him as an angel in the beginning, but he decided he wanted to take God's place, so he convinced a bunch of other angels to follow him and they got thrown out of Heaven, down to earth. Those angels that followed him became demons and they are the ones that do his dirty work. The Devil is also called "The Father of Lies" in the Bible.

[Nuru]

Elentari, what you say about suffering has very much truth in it. When God created the angels, He gave them free will, and likewise when he created us. Satan opposed God first thing, and then Adam and Eve disobeyed Him. Consider that before the first sin, there was no suffering in the world. It was all a Paradise. God gave us free will, in oppose to making us all His little robots, and so the choice to sin or not to sin was ours. Mankidn chose to sin. God allows suffering because He gave us free will. We create the suffering, and God allows it because He has given us free will.

I looked up suffering in the Catechism and here's what I got (quotes from the Catechism are in the quote boxes; everything else is me):

So according to the Christian Faith, we are born with Original Sin as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve. Baptism is what cleanses us of this Original Sin and enters us into the Faith. If we died then and there we'd go straight up to Heaven without a backwards glance at Purgatory or Hell. Yet, all the same, it doesn't mean that by becoming Christians we become robots of God, and so we still have the choice to sin, and sin we do, and we bring suffering upon ourselves:

405 Although it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence". Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

And also:

1264 Yet certain temporal consequences of sin remain in the baptized, such as suffering, illness, death, and such frailties inherent in life as weaknesses of character, and so on, as well as an inclination to sin that Tradition calls concupiscence, or metaphorically, "the tinder for sin" (fomes peccati); since concupiscence "is left for us to wrestle with, it cannot harm those who do not consent but manfully resist it by the grace of Jesus Christ." Indeed, "an athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules."

418 As a result of original sin, human nature is weakened in its powers, subject to ignorance, suffering and the domination of death, and inclined to sin (this inclination is called "concupiscence").

Original Sin?

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

Lossie, I, for one, don't feel in the least offended. You never said it was wrong to have Faith in God, so why should I feel offended? Trust me, I doubt at times. How in the world can a Faith be a Faith if there aren't any doubts? You doubt at times, yet you have faith still. Ah, I love to say it, because I've met a lot of Catholics who say, 'You can't be a true Christian unless you never have any doubts about the Faith!' Alas that I am crippled from ever being a true Christian because I have doubts. Faith in God even in the midst of doubts could be considered twice as special as Faith when you have no doubts. But as far as what you've said goes, another reason for suffering is because of that Faith. It's a test of our Faith in God:

272 Faith in God the Father Almighty can be put to the test by the experience of evil and suffering. God can sometimes seem to be absent and incapable of stopping evil. But in the most mysterious way God the Father has revealed his almighty power in the voluntary humiliation and Resurrection of his Son, by which he conquered evil. Christ crucified is thus "the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." It is in Christ's Resurrection and exaltation that the Father has shown forth "the immeasurable greatness of his power in us who believe".

There are many things in life... a frightening, awful situation may test our courage, a tough competition might test our abilities in a sport, and suffering and evil will test our Faith in God.

Evil, evil:

385 God is infinitely good and all his works are good. Yet no one can escape the experience of suffering or the evils in nature which seem to be linked to the limitations proper to creatures: and above all to the question of moral evil. Where does evil come from? "I sought whence evil comes and there was no solution", said St. Augustine, and his own painful quest would only be resolved by his conversion to the living God. For "the mystery of lawlessness" is clarified only in the light of the "mystery of our religion". The revelation of divine love in Christ manifested at the same time the extent of evil and the superabundance of grace. We must therefore approach the question of the origin of evil by fixing the eyes of our faith on him who alone is its conqueror.

There, your lesson in the Catholic Faith for today.

[Nuru]

I figured I'd do a new post to answer your questions about the devil, Lossie. There really isn't a need for me to say anything, for the Catechism is summing it up pretty nicely:

414 Satan or the devil and the other demons are fallen angels who have freely refused to serve God and his plan. Their choice against God is definitive. They try to associate man in their revolt against God.

2852 "A murderer from the beginning, . . . a liar and the father of lies," Satan is "the deceiver of the whole world." Through him sin and death entered the world and by his definitive defeat all creation will be "freed from the corruption of sin and death." Now "we know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one."

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called "Satan" or the "devil".The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: "The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing."

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact that he is pure spirit, but still a creature. He cannot prevent the building up of God's reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Christ Jesus, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature- to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but "we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him."

Oops, Elbereth, is it okay if we help you out in answering the questions? Or if the Catechism does? ;D

[Dragoneyes]

There is suffering because without it the world wouldn't work. For example, if everyone only did what they wanted to do some important things would never get done. Therefore some people have to suffer (even though it's only a small amount) to keep everything working.

Just thought I'd bring an Athiets slant on it all (even though this is Christian questions, but hey)

[Cenerue]

Well you are certainly welcome to do that, but may I respectfully say that your answer dosen't make any sense to me.

[Lossentilien]

(To bring an agnostic slant to it) I agree about suffering, but only due to the fact that without it we wouldn't know what happiness was. There would be no responsibility, leading to chaos, and the lack of pain would mean we'd have no appreciation of joy. To paraphrase I'm not quite sure who-
What is light without dark?

I read that Satan was cast out of heaven for accusing God that his ways there were wrong, which granted may not be as it says in the bible, but hey, I like the idea.
Oh, and I was wondering, if man is Adam and Adam is man and therefore the original sin is something we are born into, how is this free will? Why don't we start off with a clean slate and have the choice to screw it up if is our will to do so?
It seems cruel that we would be tested with evil and suffering just to see if we could keep our faith. If you have ever seen a parent after having lost a child unexpectedly, you will understand what I mean. It just seems so harsh and uncaring, I don't think that it's fair. How can God be incapable of stopping such things? That I just plain don't understand...

PS. Thanks a lot you guys, I find this all really interesting, even if I don't believe it, it's great to have you hear to explain the things we want to know or don't understand. I doubt I could manage even attempting to find the answers for myself as our bible does not have an index. ;D

[Cenerue]

No need for an index. I challenge you to start reading it. Start with the gospels- I dare you!

[Nurumaiel]

Well, Lossie, I'll put this forth again:

404 How did the sin of Adam become the sin of all his descendants? The whole human race is in Adam "as one body of one man".By this "unity of the human race" all men are implicated in Adam's sin, as all are implicated in Christ's justice. Still, the transmission of original sin is a mystery that we cannot fully understand. But we do know by Revelation that Adam had received original holiness and justice not for himself alone, but for all human nature. By yielding to the tempter, Adam and Eve committed a personal sin, but this sin affected the human nature that they would then transmit in a fallen state. It is a sin which will be transmitted by propagation to all mankind, that is, by the transmission of a human nature deprived of original holiness and justice. And that is why original sin is called "sin" only in an analogical sense: it is a sin "contracted" and not "committed" - a state and not an act.

We're not born having committed Adam's sin and therefore having personal guilt upon us, but when the first sin was committed it reduced the race of man in general to a fallen state. So when we are born we are born men, and so we are born into a fallen state.

God is capable of stopping such things, and I'd never say that God let a baby die just to test the parents. More than likely He wanted the baby with Him. But even if the baby was taken away for a beautiful cause, the parents will still suffer, will they not? And whether the suffering is put upon them for a test or not, it is a test. If you tell a friend of yours that you'd risk your life for him and then a killer runs at your friend, you have the choice to risk your life for him or sit back and watch him die. It doesn't mean that your friend hired the serial killer for the purpose of testing you, but you're tested all the same?

And, really, I should know after watching my parents. The second baby in the family, my older sister, died an early death, my twin brothers died and early death, and the second youngest in the family was in the hospital for almost seven months with only the smallest chance of living. I'd never say God 'did all that to us' just to test my parents, but it was a test anyway, and they passed with flying colours, though it did cause them pain.