Should animals be altered for our convenience?

[Niluial]

Should animals be altered for our convenience (cats declawed, dogs debarked, birds’ wings clipped)?

Enough said...

[Istawen Aeros]

I do not think that animals should be altered for you conveniance as a general rule. Cats need their claws to defend themselves. If they're known to scratch, train them not to.

How do you debark a dog?

As for birds' wings being clipped, I must say they should be clipped. I owned a bird once and I don't know what I would have done if I hadn't been abl to clip her feather. I don't consider them being altered because their feathers grow back. My Grandma told me that people used to break the bird's wings to keep them from flying away and I do think that that is wrong. *shudder* Clipping their feathers does the desired thing...

[Niluial]

To an extent animals should be altered for our convenience! But as I said to an extent! I would hate to declaw cats, as Istawen said they need their claws to defend themselves. As for the clawing of the couch, curtains, linen etc it is what one expects when having a cat!

Actually people can debark dogs but cutting their vocal cords out! It is not cruel, I am all for it. Our next door neighbours dog baked none stop, soon the whole neighbourhood reported and they dog had to be debarked. We do not hear the dog anymore and it is much better, gone are the days the neighbourhood is disturbed by a constant bark.

As Istawen said clipping the wings is harmless and they can go back!

I do believe that when one gets a pet they must be aware of all the pro’s and con’s! But when a pet disturbs the whole neighbourhood or causes trouble else where then something should be done.

[lordoffools]

Dear god. What next? If we can do this, then what's ruling out modifying of human beings for our 'convenience'. that's what the designer baby thing is about all over the news. Animals have feelings and rights. these rights should include the right to live out a normal life without these 'modifications'. Humans have to realise that we're not lords and masters of the entire universe, and if we do things like that, they're gonna come back and punch us in the face. "Yeah, human, remember me, I'm the descendant of that dog you de-barked. Seeing as we couldn't communicate very well, anymore, we had to start talking. Yeah, and I'm gonna debark YOU!" Or something like that... though, there isn't a way to debark a dog.
Why can't we all just leave things alone to live? We've marred this entire world. the least we can do is let birds have their wings.

[Nurumaiel]

I agree with lordoffools. It seems absolute ridiculous and horrendously cruel to me to, for the sake of our own foolish convenience (what is it with most humans that they can't take even the tiniest bit of suffering without a thousand complaints?), cause animals confusion and pain. Isn't a dog going to be confused and frightened if it realizes it can't bark anymore? Won't a bird feel the same if it finds it can't fly? Wouldn't any sane human being feel frightened if they found that one day they suddenly couldn't walk, couldn't see, couldn't hear, couldn't speak... It doesn't really matter if you can alter the animals without causing much physical pain in the process. It's still cruel to take their lives in your hands and treat them as though they were a wooden toy you wanted to change so it would work better, or a story you found needed editting.

In short, the good God gave each creature everything it has for a purpose and it is no business of ours to hurt them by taking it away. Goodness, I don't know what I'd do if someone tried to 'alter' my baby brother just because he screams very noisily at times. Sure, humans are of more worth than animals but it's disgusting to treat any form of life in such a way. The mere thought is appalling.

[Istawen Aeros]

And when you clip a bird's wings, they can still fly. yes they can. They just can't fly as well.

It does not hurt birds to have their wings clipped. It's just like cutting our fingernails. Oh no. We're altering ourselves! What are we going to do! Not only are we being cruel and unusual to the birds but we're being cruel and unusual to ourselves! We are the cancer of this earth! Noooooo!



So you're saying that if I own a bird, I cannot clip the bird's wings? Because, you see, I'm clipping the bird's wings for its own protection. See, animals have this urge to explore the big wide world outside, and my bird loved to fly out the door when she was out of the cage on her playpen (No, we did not keep the door open -- she'd sneak out when we'd open it to come in or out). If she hadn't had her wings clipped, she would have flown away and then a few things could have happend:

1. She could have gotten lost and starved to death.
2. She could have made a tasty meal for a wandering cat.
3. She could have been attacked by a hawk.
4. She could have frozen to death at night.

So, I could either have forbidden anyone to use the front door, or I could have kept her locked in her little bitty cage with wings unclipped. Bu ah, in a such a small cage wings, either clipped or unclipped won't do her any good, will they? And then I'd be told how bad a person I was for keeping her cooped up in her cage.

[Nurumaiel]

We're altering ourselves! What are we going to do! Not only are we being cruel and unusual to the birds but we're being cruel and unusual to ourselves!

I don't understand how... unless you were just being sarcastic? That would make more sense.

We are the cancer of this earth!

No, I don't really think so. We have the ability to, I believe, but generally humans have made the world much sweeter if they're not making the world sweeter (and if that makes any sense at all!)

Now about the bird clipping... I don't know anything about clipping wings, but you say it's just like cutting fingernails. Not real 'altering.' It isn't life-changing. The wings will grow back. And in this case your example doesn't work very well for the debate because you're clipping your bird's wings for its convenience, not yours. So, Istawen, cheers to you for that. *little bow*

But debarking a dog, for example, I consider different. If the dog were in some way hurting itself and endangering itself through barking, debarking it would not be terrible. That would be to help it. But to debark it because it barks a lot and is annoying would not seem right. It seems rather selfish and greedy to me, as if it doesn't matter what we do to the dog as long as we have perfect comfort and leisure.

'Altering' an animal for its protection and welfare does not seem to me wrong. Not many people consider it wrong to amputate a human's fingers, toes, arms, legs, etc. because of something such as blood poisoning, because that isn't harming them, it's helping them. But if one harms and hurts animals just so they can be more comfortable and everything can be more convenient for them, that seems wrong and I must say rather disgusts me (I say it without meaning to offend anyone).

[Istawen Aeros]

Yes, the part about the fingernails was sarcastic.

No....I don't believe that we should debark dogs...that's like declawing a cat...*see first post*

[lordoffools]

I heard about this collar that was made somewhere in America that had spikes on the inside, and when you pulled a little thing, the spikes closed in. Now that's inhumane.

We are doing horrible things to each other, though inadvertantly. Look at the world's distribution of wealth at the moment. Sports stars and actors have houses so big, and they have billions of dollars to toss around, spending on ridiculous amounts of plastic surgery (see Michael Jackson), and in 'third world' countries (by the way, I object strongly to that terminology) people live in lean-tos, and are lucky to have enough food. Many do back breaking labour every day, get no worker's rights or anything. This isn't fair, it's inhumane and if we weren't all so selfish it might be better.

Doing anything cruel is what it is: cruel. Whether human or animal (and humans ARE animals). it's just plain wrong, unless, as I.A has said, for their own protection.

[Dragoneyes]

Sorry to go off topic but are you saying that poverty is a type of cruelty? Because it's not. Cruelty is purposely inflicted and Poverty is just a fact of life. Unless the entire world becomes a successfully working communist state there will always be poorer people and richer people.

I don't understand you comment about us being so selfish, are you suggesting that we should give poor people so much money that they become rich and we become poor? Now that'll hardly solve anything will it?

Just dumping a huge amount of money into a poor country's economy wouldn't help to stabalize it in any way. The country has to work through its own problems with, perhaps, a helping hand now and then. If the third-world countries just relied on charities and loans for money and income how would they ever improve?

Every country has had its "living in lean-tos" time, we in the richer countries have just happened to have worked through it already. We can't fix all of the third-world's problems for it, it just wouldn't work.

I think the whole animal altering debate has been thoroughly debated nd it seems we're all at an agreement so I've nothing else to say.