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Post by Lossentilien on Sept 22, 2004 13:45:26 GMT -5
I would like to make a formal apology for my use of the word c**l. I shall do my very best not to use this offensive word in my future posts. *nods severely*
I see what you're saying and I do understand it, but what I don't understand is why we don't have the understanding to accept what's going on. That, right there, is why I resent God. Another thing I'd like to put out here, is that there is the arguement that people want to believe in God and heaven because they don't like the idea of dying and just ceasing to exist. I mean it terrifies me that once you die you just stop and there's nothing left of you and that ultimately you have meant nothing. But I also think that it's important to embrace this idea, even if it makes you horribly uncomfortable. I don't want any faith that I may develop to be out of fear, I don't want to believe that God loves me as though I were the only person on earth, as I'd prefer to know that I can cope with the possibility that I am utterly alone in that sense. I mean all this stuff about heaven and God and good and evil, it makes for good reading, and I'm sure a very reassuring faith, but sometimes I like to feel that terror that it is all meaningless. I had a discussion about this with Nilly and Imzy, and I have a great respect for Imzy now as she can accept this idea that there is nothing and we are creating an intricate web of reassurance just to keep us sane.
As for God never letting anyone down who believed in Him, that really does seem strange. I believed in Him really only as a child can, but give it a few years and more pain (physical and emotional) than I think I could cope with now, I don't know what I believe.
Oh, and just dead quickly, I'd kinda like to know your stances on these heresies and other religions. What about Satanism and Wiccans?
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Post by Lossentilien on Sept 22, 2004 10:07:39 GMT -5
Ok, as I'm completely oblivious to all this, what exactly is Original sin and how on earth can a baby be born into it? I don't like this whole confession thing, I mean it's pretty cool in theory, but it makes no sense, how can you be absolved for your actions just by confessing them? I may be totally and utterly wrong in my understanding of that, but that's how people talk about it. And you say God has never let you down, but what about the people He has? Ok, I'll give you that they are being 'tested' but there are people living in parts of the whole who don't even know of your God or your sin, so where do they stand? I also don't think it's right that God's ways are so 'far above us' It's just not fair to expect people to have blind, unwavering faith when they supposedly cannot even comprehend what they are or why they are. How can you expect people to live these lives that they don't understand? Pfft. I'd rather reject God and be damned than keep my silence. I think that if He were a decent God, He would listen to those he created and give them the answers they need.
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Post by Lossentilien on Dec 5, 2003 15:40:02 GMT -5
I realise you're here cause you care, and I thank you for it, I love that you care enough to argue (discuss ) it here with us. It's just that what some of us are saying is that we simply don't believe the same as you, and if we have to be punished for choosing what we believe, do we really want to show support for a God who would do that? I think that even if there was a Heaven or Hell, I'd prefer to live my life with my own decisions and choices, even if that means being stuck in Hell. Purely because a God who would send people to Hell simply for not believing doesn't seem like a good merciful God. If he were, it wouldn't matter, it would only matter that you'd done what you thought was right and hadn't gone out of your way to destroy anyone else. I'd have to say, that in my opinion the whole purpose of life is to love and to learn and to try to understand. If you do these things, and live the 'best' of lives you can, but still don't believe in God, would you go to Hell? What about children? Babies? They don't have the capacity to choose what they believe, so what happens to them?
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Post by Lossentilien on Dec 5, 2003 14:35:17 GMT -5
Whoa you guys, calm down. Do you really feel there's tension here? I don't feel like that at all, I love hearing the opposite views from the christians and athiests. I don't feel any different towards Firi and Elbereth, if anything, I appreciate them more because they've participated. I don't think this is getting ugly at all! It's amazing, I'm really glad we've all got such different ideas, and would like to point out that none of the criticisms made have been about individual people, but about general religion. Do you really feel tension? Cause if you do I'll close this topic in a heartbeat, I just haven't noticed or felt any tension...
Erm, science explained this with the big band and evolution...or do you mean something else? I'm not quite sure what you meant there, cause (I think it was) Helky said science has explained these mysteries, and big bang etc was science's explanation. Haven't you read anything about Darwin?
I think perhaps that people are taking the points made here a little personally, for example, it was said that people who didn't believe in God would go to Hell, now, I could take this incerdibly personally, but I don't. Why don't I? Because it doesn't matter to me. I believe what I believe, and you believe what you believe. That's all there is. I have my own ideas, and would never say that belief in God is wrong. In many ways I think it's right, it's just religion as a whole I have problems with. Like Nilly, I feel like I was abadoned by any God. I used to believe, I used to go to church, but I got the distinct impression that I was wasting my time, and that either God didn't care/have time, or that there was no God. And I would never say that God doesn't exsist. The other thing is, those of you who are religious, please don't get mad at us for not holding the same beliefs, if you think about it, we're all going to Hell as far as you may or may not believe. ;D Nah, seriously though, you have your love for your God, and that's more important than wither the rest of us believe or not. You believe it, and that's what's really important for you. So what if other people don't, we all have the right to believe what we will.
I will make a little arguement for the sake of Socrates though. Socrates did not want to instruct people. He gave the impression of someone who very much desired to learn from those he spoke to. So instead of lecturing, he discussed. Are we here to discuss, or are we arguing and telling people what they should believe? I personally thought we were only discussing. But if you have problems, say so.
"...Wisest is she who knows she does not know..."
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Post by Lossentilien on Nov 30, 2003 7:39:41 GMT -5
Sorry, sorry, that's come out completly wrong. I wasn't meaning to say that you weren't smart and articulate, I know you are, what I was saying is that I can't understand how someone that's smart and articulate can believe in something like God. It's just that the more I and many other people I've discussed this with questioned religion, the less it made sense, which led me to ask why the majority of people don't see that too. It's difficult to explain properly without sounding like I'm saying religious people are fools, which I'm not saying, it's just that I really don't understand it, so I'm finding it hard to put into words efficiently enough.
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Post by Lossentilien on Nov 29, 2003 14:14:16 GMT -5
I am so glad you quoted Karl Marx, could that be said in any better way? I personally can't understand why educated people hold this unwavering belief in God. If you're a smart, articulate person, the best way to learn is to question. And the more you question religion, the less it fits together. I can understand people who've been conditioned to believe all this stuff, but for the thinking mind, it just doesn't add up. I have something which doesn't really relate to sins or virtues, but I think it makes a very valuble point.
"Satan was simlpy a label of convenience. Mind you, if Jesus had come back a few hundred years later, and seen what had been done in his name- the crusades, or te Inquisition, or even just a routine schism with heretics burning at the stake over a point of doctorine- he'd probably have given up on all religion then and there. The atheist formerly known as Christ. He might even have decided it would be best- or at least much easier- to corrupt and destroy the human race instead of wasting time trying to save it."
Religion is one of the most corruptive things in the world, how many wars have there been that were not started because of religion? How many people have suffered because a group of people- not God- got together and decided what was wrong and right, good and bad? There is no proof that what is in the bible is truth. If you rely on prophecy, it doesn't make that strong an argument. There have been people prophecising all through history, some have come true, some haven't. There's no way to proove that the stories in the bible weren't just made up by a bunch of power hungry loons. Or priests if you will.
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Post by Lossentilien on Nov 28, 2003 10:59:51 GMT -5
Well surely for a religion that preaches forgivness and understanding, that can't be fair to persecute people who do not believe? What about those who know nothing of your God? Is it fair to punish them for their supposed ignorance?
And as for wiping your record clean, how is that possible, if you sin, you sin. In my opinion, you shouldn't be able to use God as an easy way of forgivness. You have a history, and you ought to remember the good and bad things you've done, regardless. The possibility of having all that taken away seems extremly unrealistic, what would we be without them? And if you have the memory, then it can't be truly wiped clean. Plus, what kind of sins are they? Sins can't be put in general terms, as all these emotions are what make us human. If the deadly sins were things like murder, I could understand it, but condemming someone for anger, pride or lust seems ridiculous. And if I have to pay for experiancing these things in Hell, all I can say is I'll go gladly. I won't sacrifice being able to have these emotions. I think we need these emotions. They're what drive us in all aspects of life, and to say that they're just plain wrong, I think is in itself a petty and narrow minded way to think. If God allows people to go to Hell for just plain living, then that is possibly the worst thing of all. I'm not saying that people shouldn't have to pay for doing wrong, I'm saying that Christianity's way of thinking about it seems wrong, it's missing the big picture and focusing on trivial matters. And I for one want nothing to do with that hypocritical version of God.
I realise that this could be taken extremly badly, but I'm not talking about everyone who believes in God, I'm talking about a probably select few, who's minds have not developed fully, but still live in the past, when right and wrong were governed in a completly different way. Even though it was just as hypocritical then as it can be now. Personally, I am an agnostic, literally- one who does not know, so not all I've said here is belief, it's all just ideas. I find the thought of belief a little too rigid, so don't take all of this as criticism, it is not meant to be harsh or the truth, it's simply an idea. I don't want anyone to tell me that I'm wrong, so likewise, I don't think any of you are wrong. If you believe what you believe, then it's real for you, and that's what matters for you.
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Post by Lossentilien on Nov 27, 2003 11:47:12 GMT -5
Meh, just your opinions. Whatever comes into your head, imagination people! Foooor example, are the sins impossible to avoid and therefore unfair? What about people who don't believe in God, does that mean they're doomed to, and deseve to be tortured in Hell for thier sins? Even though they have different belief systems?
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Post by Lossentilien on Nov 25, 2003 17:08:02 GMT -5
Since this all seems to be such a big (off-topic ) discussion over in The Vaults, we may as well give it a rightful home. Or two... I have absolutly no idea what happened to the other thread, but if it's still alive, let me know and we'll close this one. Anyway, what are your opinions on this? Here's a little net info. The Seven Deadly Sins.(Sins and punishments in Hell.) Pride- broken on the wheel. Envy- put in freezing water. Anger- dismembered alive. Sloth- thrown in snake pits. Greed- put in cauldrons of boiling oil. Gluttony- forced to eat rats, toads, and snakes. Lust- smothered in fire and brimstone. The Seven Heavenly Virtues.faith (or trust) justice prudence hope temperance (which means avoiding excess in all things, rather than the more recent meaning of abstinence from liquor) fortitude charity. I can't find all that much that would be of interest to most, but if you want I can post it. So, do you think they're unreasonable? Why? Talk away. Have fun. But absolutely do not tell people what to think (I doubt you would) and don't imply that someone else is wrong, no one is wrong here, we're just throwing around our ideas.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 16, 2003 11:24:29 GMT -5
"Man cannot live by bread alone" Obviously everyone needs food, everyone has basic needs, including love and care. But the question we need to ask ourselves- is there something else, apart from that, which everyone needs? To a philosopher this thing is to know. Or at least have an idea. We need to know who we are, and why we are here. These, perhaps unfortunatly, are not casual interests (a little like our interests in Tolkien) How the universe, the earth, and life came into being are all huge questions, possibly without answers we'll ever find. But such questions are part of a debate which has been going on as long as people were capable of asking them. It's far easier to ask philosophical questions than to answer them.
So why bother asking these questions? Each indiviual has to discover thier own answers to some, as you can't find out about God, life after death, or how you ought to live from reading a textbook. But, reading what other people think leads you to formulating your own ideas and opinions on life.
So this is what this section is for. Somewhere to throw your ideas around, or other people's and discuss them. Or if you want you could just chuck in whatever's on your mind.
If a discussion gets too involved, and turns into a debate, it may be moved into The Imladris Court for a more structured way of talking about it. Or if you feel that you want it raised in the Court, send a pm to one of the mods.
Philosophy can sometimes slip into Psychology, if this happens too often, we may open up another section, but for the moment, lets stick with philosophy. At some point I would like to see what happens if we attempt dream interpretation, but it's a little vague, so we'll see how it goes.
The main thing is that we have open-minded conversations. It is forbidden to deride anyone's opinions or ideas. You don't have to be serious in your discussions, just pay attention to the fact that some people could get offened by an off-hand remark.
So have an interesting time, and remember, the only thing we require to be good philosophers is the faculty of wonder.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 14, 2004 10:04:01 GMT -5
I was wondering the other day...if all Christians believe in Adam and Eve, (?) do they not believe in evolution and the big bang? I have a vague recollection that this was actually mentioned in the 7 deadly sins topic, and willl no doubt be in the Religion vs Science topic, but I really just wondered if to be Christian you had to cast aside the scientific answers. Simple. I hope...
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Post by Lossentilien on Sept 22, 2004 13:26:13 GMT -5
(To bring an agnostic slant to it) I agree about suffering, but only due to the fact that without it we wouldn't know what happiness was. There would be no responsibility, leading to chaos, and the lack of pain would mean we'd have no appreciation of joy. To paraphrase I'm not quite sure who- What is light without dark? I read that Satan was cast out of heaven for accusing God that his ways there were wrong, which granted may not be as it says in the bible, but hey, I like the idea. Oh, and I was wondering, if man is Adam and Adam is man and therefore the original sin is something we are born into, how is this free will? Why don't we start off with a clean slate and have the choice to screw it up if is our will to do so? It seems cruel that we would be tested with evil and suffering just to see if we could keep our faith. If you have ever seen a parent after having lost a child unexpectedly, you will understand what I mean. It just seems so harsh and uncaring, I don't think that it's fair. How can God be incapable of stopping such things? That I just plain don't understand... PS. Thanks a lot you guys, I find this all really interesting, even if I don't believe it, it's great to have you hear to explain the things we want to know or don't understand. I doubt I could manage even attempting to find the answers for myself as our bible does not have an index. ;D
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Post by Lossentilien on Sept 21, 2004 11:21:37 GMT -5
Well I think there's a definate feeling these days that we've been abandoned by God, obviously I am not speaking for everyone, so those of you who have that amazing ability to have blind faith in Him, please please don't get insulted, (I tend to go off on rants because I don't get this whole Allmighty thing. That doesn't mean I do or don't believe, but still, I do think that people today have this feeling of resentment. But anyways, my question I'll forget, so I'm posting it now to save me staring at my screen in a few days time racking my brain for it. I just want to know what exactly the religious view of the Devil is, because I've read a lot about his name being translated to 'The Accuser' which to me (and from what I've read) seems like a good thing. I'm confused, so please go ahead, sort 'fact' from 'fiction' if such a thing is possible. ~Loss, who has a funny feeling she's gone and unintentionally insulted people yet again...
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Post by Lossentilien on Sept 10, 2004 15:11:18 GMT -5
As an official born (kinda) and bred Scot, I think I should probably put in my two cents. First of all, the accents in Braveheart are hysterically wrong, and throughout my life I've rarely heard worse. Not that this is bad, it makes the movie even funnier for those of us who live here. Second, and I know this is only opinion, but I cannot stand bagpipes and believe that they sound scarily similar to the that of a cat being strangled. And as for the whole stereotype of Scots, I've only once in my life worn anything even remotely similar to a kilt, but it was in actual fact a tartan mini skirt and I was going through a punk phase. As for Scottish dancing, I've don't have a clue. And never wish to. Not that I don't love where I live, but to be honest, most of Scotland is either really dull (but beautiful) or absolutely horrible and full of what we like to refer to as NEDS. I think you English call them pikies... So in conclusion, I don't really care for Braveheart, I can see how people would like it, but it seems very unrealistic, the continuity is apalling, and the accents are hilarious. Oh, and I know a guy who's talking to Steven Spielberg about a script he's written about Prince Charlie, doesn't look like anything'll come of it, but you never know!
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Post by Lossentilien on Jan 9, 2004 18:12:34 GMT -5
Not Hook! I loved that movie!!! I saw Peter Pan the other week actually, and my was that disappointing...what the heck were all the pervy connotations about? Sleeeazy. And I'd like to know what a 'hidden kiss' is...interesting...
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