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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 26, 2004 12:39:57 GMT -5
It's the same thing with a lot of Protestants. You don't know how many wierd things I've heard, but I'm fortunate enough to have a mother who was formerly a Protestant, and she can assure me that most Protestants don't think that way. I think it's a shame, though, that some Catholics are so blatantly ignorant as to say the word 'fairy-tale' when they're talking about the Bible. No wonder we have such a bad name in so many places. I'm not going to go into a long debate about the days, because I was just using it as an example and it's really not the subject of the debate. And as far as the debate itself goes, I understand your intentions in creating it, but I should feel less nervous about it if the thread had been entitled, say, 'Protestants and Catholics.' The word 'versus' gives hint to some sort of competition.
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 25, 2004 15:52:48 GMT -5
I confess I am not certain what we're supposed to be discussing here, and the word 'versus' disturbs me considerably, because it seems as though there is some competition between the two religions, which has never had satisfying results in the past. For the most part, I think, I will stay away, for I don't want any 'battles' to result of a competition. I WILL, however, step in and defend Catholics against any false charges made.
Wren, there are two things I can say to your proclaimation of what your Catholic teacher thought: Either the teacher himself was in error, or you misunderstood him. I discussed this in great anger with my mother, for it's not the first time I've heard a Protestant saying that a Catholic taught that the Bible was 'just a story.' This is nothing against you, for again, it was either the teacher's fault for being so blatantly foolish and ignorant, or you merely misunderstood him, which is not fault of malice on your part.
That being said, let me state most emphathetically that the Catholic Faith is founded on what the Bible says and teaches. Christianity evolved from the teachings of Christ, which are in the Bible. Let me hasten to point out that the Catholic Faith was the only Christian faith for many years, and then the Church was broken away from and new forms of Christianity came forth. If the teacher was saying that the Bible is just a beautiful story, but not true, then he was foolishly in the wrong, for the Catholic Faith is founded on what is in the Bible.
However, there is a possibility that you merely misunderstood what the teacher was saying, for it is true that not all things in the Bible must be taken literally. That is to say, it doesn't mean they aren't true, but we don't need to believe what it says to that last detail. The example my mother used was this:
It is stated in Genesis that God created the world in seven days. However, we don't have to take this literally and say the world was created in seven 24-hour days. No, indeed not! Just because it says 'seven days' doesn't mean the days are by our standard of time. Perhaps the days to God were thousands of years, perhaps they were longer or shorter.
So, yes, everything in the Bible is true, and Catholics do, or at least should, believe this, but it doesn't mean everything is to be taken for a literal word-for-word fact, or that is to say, that a 'day' means our own standards of a day, and so on.
Dragoneyes, how can I answer this except by saying merely, 'Absolutely correct.'
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 27, 2004 12:06:39 GMT -5
Perhaps, Dragoneyes, it would be better to ask Istawen, for she originally spoke of that. I do not know what her meaning is, but I think that everyone's heart is stirred in some manner or other, depending on how you interpret 'stir,' for otherwise God would pick and choose, which would be unfair. Then, of course, it is up to the individual, as we have free will and we will not be forced to believe.
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 27, 2004 11:39:30 GMT -5
Exactly what I am saying! How could I possibly convince an atheist that God existed when they probably wouldn't even understand it? And, really, nothing will convince an atheist (or non-believer) unless God has stirred that one's heart.
And that is not the only reason I think God exists. It was my 'proof,' so to say, instances that made it seem to me impossible that there could be no God.
And what do you mean by 'saved?'
Well, about baptism, let me clear up one thing. Just because there is such a thing as Baptism by Blood and Baptism by Desire doesn't mean you don't have to be baptised. That is to say, if every opportunity is open to you to be baptised, you can't just ignore it and think you're baptised anyway. But if you want to be baptised and it is just impossible to have it happen before you die, that is when the two 'other' baptisms are effective.
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 26, 2004 13:01:15 GMT -5
Oh, Istawen, you're a great one for a debate! You're more or less on my side, for I gather that you're a Christian, but you still propose questions that make me think! Very well, I shall try to answer as best I may: Scriptural evidence of these two baptisms is that God is good and merciful, as He is always portrayed in the Bible. I wouldn't blame someone for saying He's unfair if either of the two things happened (and forgive how awfully these stories are written; I'm trying to make a point, not a work of art ): Once upon a time, in the days when the Christians were persecuted by the Romans because of their Faith, there was a man, who was a very devout Christian. One day he was found out by some of his friends, who were pagans, and sons of the officials in the city, and after mocking him and jeering him they became very angry and picked up stones and began throwing them at him. Another pagan was standing nearby, watching, and he was in admiration of the man's courage, who would not reject his Faith when his 'friends' bid him too. And then the pagan had a change of heart, and he thought of all he had heard of the Faith, and he began to believe it was true. He stepped forward, towards the other pagans, saying, 'Hold! Please do not hurt this man further; he is already badly injured as it is.' They turned to him with jeering faces. 'What, then? Are you a Christian, too?' The pagan was afraid to answer. He found in his heart a strong desire to be a Christian, but if he admitted it they might kill him, too, and he would never have the opportunity to be baptised. But courage rose up inside of him and he said, 'Yes, I hope to be baptised as soon as I possibly can.' They laughed and said, 'Surely, you cannot be serious? Do you believe in this Christian Faith so much that you are ready to stand there and die for it?' And the "pagan" replied firmly, 'Yes, I am willing to die for it.' And he was killed with the other man. Now, when these two men came up to God to be judged, He said to the first man, who was a Christian, 'My son, you have served Me faithfully, and so come claim your reward.' And then He turned to the other man and said, 'My son, I know that you died for Me, and that you would have been baptised if you had had a chance. But isn't it a sorry pity: you didn't have a chance! Circumstances were against you, for there was no priest about to baptise you. Well then, My son, despite your heroic courage in dying for Me, and your ardent wish to be baptised, I am left with no choice but to toss you into the fire. I am sorry.' And so the Christian man went to Heaven, and the "pagan" was cast into Hell, because circumstances were against him and there was no priest about when he died for the Faith.Awfully written story, I realize, but I think it makes my point rather well. Do you think that's how it would play out? That God would toss someone into Hell, someone who had died for Him, just because that person could not be baptised because there was no priest about? And apply the same story to the Baptism by Desire, only modifying it slightly. What if one was just a few days away from the day of their baptism, and something happened to kill them? Do you think they'd go up to Heaven and God would say, 'Oh, I admit it: I struck you down before you could be baptised because I didn't want you up here in Heaven. You're face is a bit... ugly, to say the least. Apologies!' Oh, dear me, I think that would be quite absurd. And I cringe to look up at the little story I just wrote, oh, but, please see that it was to make a point, not to impress everyone with my writing talents. It would have gone on and on and on if I had tried to write it well. I daresay it might be considered similar to Fabiola, or perhaps it would. And, oh dear, I am trapped within a delusion. But, one must confess, it doesn't make one exactly unhappy, or at least I feel that way. However could I prove that God existed.... I learned it by the trees and birds, and by all of nature, for I live in a place that is almost untouched by human life. And all these trees, birds, and the gentle wind, told it to me. Oh, but I am too dramatic. If it is a delusion, it isn't an unhappy one.
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 25, 2004 12:33:49 GMT -5
Istawen,
Agreed. There is no physical evidence. I don't know if it would be a true thing to say there is no evidence of any kind, but as far as physical evidence goes.
Matthew, Chap. 3, has a bit, but if you want to be specific, John 3:5 has what you want:
'Jesus answered, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit."'
As far as Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire goes, this is what the Church teaches:
I am relieved. If you have asked me a question of a sort, inviting me to step back into the discussion, then it must mean I do not come off as 'preaching.' Indeed, I do not intend to be 'preaching.'
Cenerue, I am still interested in how a person would want to be 'saved' when they don't understand what it means and what will come of it. My mamma was a Protestant before she converted to Catholicism, but she did not understand this either when I asked her about it. Would you mind explaining?
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 22, 2004 17:07:05 GMT -5
Woa, woa, hold on a minute! I'd like this whole 'saved' thing explained to me to. It's a concept I've heard of, but I've never understood it. What does it mean to be 'saved,' and how do you become 'saved?' I likewise put forth the same question as Dragoneyes: How can a person be 'saved' when they only understand after they're 'saved?' A person wouldn't want to be saved, would they, unless they realized the danger they're in and all the good that will come out of being 'saved.' So if they can't understand it before, why would they even want to? I'm very curious about it. It seems to me that a person would realize and understand and then want to be 'saved' (though I'm still hazy about what that is). It's odd to want to be 'saved' without having an understanding of what you're doing. Also, just because you're a Christian is no guarantee that you're going to Heaven. I've heard it proclaimed that everyone who is a Christian is going to Heaven. Not true at all! You can't just say you're a Christian or be baptised, but you have to live your life supremely as just that. You're not going to Heaven just because your state of life is Christian, but you have to be living as one. Nobody can ever KNOW they're going to Heaven, even if they live beautiful lives. They can suspect it, sure, but only God can tell the future. Now, I don't exactly know how the Church stands on non-Christians going to Heaven or Hell, and it's something I've been looking to find the answer for some time, but I do know that it is taught that unless one is baptised they can't get into Heaven. Yet aside from the ritual Baptism of Water, there's also Baptism by Blood and Baptism by Desire. That is to say, if a person was never baptised but died for the Faith, they'd be baptised by blood, so to speak, and if they died before they could be baptised but had a sincere desire to baptised, they'd be baptised by water. All the same, good question about your mother, Dragoneyes. It's a tough question to answer, because it involves deeply one of the 'mysteries.' The mystery of God's Justice and also the mystery of His Mercy. I'll have to check up with my Mamma on this. I know it's stated that someone who isn't baptised can't go to Heaven, but it never said they'd go to Hell, or so I think (my memory may be vague). It could be that those who weren't baptised but led good lives go to Purgatory and are afterwards admitted to Heaven. Most people will probably go to Purgatory, anyway, because you have to be absolutely perfect, without any sin upon you whatsoever to enter Heaven immediately. Lots of people hate the idea, and say it's awful, but, really, if you weren't absolutely perfect so you could enter Heaven right away, and there were no Purgatory, the only other choice would be the boot into Hell. But Heaven, you know, is the reward of it all. It's fine to want to go to Heaven and strive every day to live a life worthy enough to get there, but the ultimate thing is to please and serve God. It's an impossibility that anyone who has served Him faithfully could go to Hell, but ideally even if a person went to Hell after serving Him all their lives faithfully, it should be their joy that He was pleased. The reward is what comes to you when you've finished the task, but the here and now that should be mainly concentrated on is doing the task. Confirmed into the Church, one becomes an official soldier of the glorious leader Christ, and their duty is to serve Him and serve Him, and not try to get the reward before it's given to them. If they're not high enough in perfection to have the strength to work just to please Him (and most people don't get to that level of perfection), he can pause for a moment and think of what's coming to him, and then plow on. I think, I do think, that I'm going to gracefully step out of the discussion. I'm having fun (that is, I'm not dejectedly miserable for speaking with you all), I'll own up, but I feel like I'm preaching and trying to ram down your throats, 'Believe or be damned!' I'm not trying to do that (I'm rather musing through things that have puzzled me, as well), and I hate to give the impression. I don't know about others, but I at least don't look at all the non-believers and think, 'Oh, 'tis a pity they're going to Hell. Burn, my friends, for your folly!' No, rather, I like to hear just why you aren't Catholics (Protestants are wonderful, and some of my relatives are Protestants, but the Catholic Faith is the complete and whole Faith where nothing is lacking), consider your points, realize that your doubts are often enough my own doubts, and then resolve it for myself, and be just as much a friend to you as ever, and never let it once cross my mind, 'Burn, my dearies, for your wickedness! You're all going to Hell!' I've heard it before, and it's brought me to tears, so I'm not doing it myself. Pompous people who get satisfaction out of seeing people go to Hell. Lossie, I am most grateful for your lovely apology in regards to using that hideous word. Yes, indeedy, most grateful. ;D *trails off muttering that she's not going to own up that she's guilty of it herself at times* Also: Ah... *trails off into dreams about the next St. Augustine, and then looks up sheepishly* Joking, of course. But, then again, joking apart, that was the view St. Augustine in many things about the Faith before he re-became a Catholic. Study, Lossie, and research! You won't lose anything, and mayhap you'll gain something. I can't say, but research never hurts. If you're going to research, though, head for the Catholic Faith as a research on a Christian faith. Various forms of Protestantism have thrown me off one way or another, though most of what they say is more or less correct. If you're really serious about asking questions about the Faith, fetch out a Catechism, skim through it, perhaps glance through the Summa Theologia, and then ask a good priest (or if you know a good, knowledgeable Catholic, but most lay people aren't as learned in the doctrine) to explain to you what you don't understand (I'm beginning this now, because even though I'm a Catholic I want to know more about my Faith and understand it even better; I have lots of questions). If you're really serious about asking questions. If you're not, you probably wouldn't want to spend a lot of time doing something that you'll go into hoping to find fault and error. True?
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 22, 2004 12:32:43 GMT -5
God's ways are 'not so far above us.' The Catholic Faith is the complete faith of Jesus Christ, and explains everything. It's just that there's some Catholics who were never educated in their Faith and don't know what they're talking about. But even though there are some ignorant Catholisc who do a rotten job of explaining their Faith (who knows, I might be among them), the Catholic Faith itself does have all the answers. The Faith isn't a blind Faith. Sure, you can't see God, but in the Faith you know who you are, why you're alive, etc., etc., etc. Lossie, Original Sin is the state that we are born into, having inherited this state of sin from Adam. I posted these quotes from the Catechism on a different thread, but I will also post them here: Here's what is taught on Confession: Faith, I just thought of something. I hope, I honestly hope -and I speak to Lossie as well as to any others- yes, I do hope that you don't think I'm preaching. I assure you, I am not. I'm rotten at the task and often enough preaching puts people on the defense and it can be awfully annoying. That is to say, if it's preaching in the 'preachy' sense. So, dearies, don't think I'm preaching, please, because I'm not. I have just observed that questions were asked, and I have done my best to answer them. If you don't want to hear the answers then, I beg you, please do not ask! I'm sure I'll answer otherwise. *gasps* Lossie!!!! How dare you, my dear? After reading numerous discussions upon this forum, I am quite shocked to hear you say that confession is pretty 'cool in theory.' Are you sure it isn't pretty ' lofty in theory?' By the way, I was reading earlier posts, Lossie, and you said there, which I think you are saying at least partially now: I protest. Very well, other Christian religions seem to hold an unwavering belief in God, and that's it (I said seems to; I don't know much about Protestants). The Catholic Church teaches the religion, like I said earlier. It explains that it makes sense, why it makes sense, and if someone is really approaching the teaches with an intelligent, open mind, there will be sense. It's ridiculous to say that you found religion lacking for when you questioned it with the idea of trying to find it lacking. St. Augustine (who I quoted earlier) was raised by a holy, saintly mother, and nevertheless he went running off and joined all these different cults, jumping from one heresy to the next, and cursing the Catholic Faith. Yet he had a brilliant mind. He was one of the most intelligent men ever, and when he started question he found nothing lacking. It began to fit together, and because he was so intelligent he could see how it all worked, and now he's one of the greatest saints. Bah humbug! You said in a different thread that you weren't intending to offend anybody, but you offended me deeply. I'll never recover from hearing you use the word 'cool.' I thought it was 'lofty' around here. *casts a reproachful look at Lossie* ;D
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Post by Nurumaiel on Jun 13, 2004 11:27:06 GMT -5
N Sprangers, what an enjoyable post yours was! I just must step in for a moment and defend the good names of Catholics.
If so it would sadly be the fault of the individual Catholic. I know how seriously other kinds of Christians take the Holy Scripture, and Catholics take it just as seriously. That is, the Catholic religion takes it seriously. The individuals might have some odd ideas, in the same way that the Catholic religion believes in the Real Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament but individual Catholics may or may not. In short, Catholics should believe the words of the Bible are Truth, as that is where (particularly the New Testament) our religion comes from, and it is merely a sorry thing if there is a Catholic who looks upon it as story.
I suppose this doesn't have anything to do with the actual topic, however. I'll go back to subject.
Everything from Old Testament still applies. In a recent homily our priest explained how in the New Testament when Jesus came and preached He didn't make up a new set of rules. He taught everyone by the old set of rules, but clearly defined and fulfilled. That is why members of my family are fond of calling themselves the New-and-Upgraded-Jews, because Christians follow the same rules as Jews, the rules that God set out in the Old Testament, but the difference is that the Jews follow them as the Old Testament defined them and Christians follow them in the fulfilled way that Jesus presented.
Sometimes it's rather frightening to read the Bible with a friend. I personally turn to the saints named Doctors of the Church and read what they say about the Bible, because they won't confuse you with metaphors and outdated things.
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Post by Nurumaiel on Jun 23, 2003 21:31:00 GMT -5
I'm puzzled. It's hard to talk here when you're the only one. Well, Bekah, how about we plot together to get it started?
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 29, 2004 12:12:50 GMT -5
Perhaps you're referring to The Catechism of the Catholic Church?
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 27, 2004 11:34:37 GMT -5
No, you did not say that; I was just making a statement, considering some comments made previously.
So are you saying the war is between Satan and his henchmen? And realize it would be hard for Satan to harm anyone else besides us. He can't do a thing to God or His angels. Who does he have to hurt besides us? Who does he torture in hell besides us?
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 26, 2004 13:10:31 GMT -5
You know, Istawen, I get tired of hearing the same thing. All right, I don't get tired of hearing that God loves us, at least if it's presented in the right way. I'm not one to enjoy standing in crowds, shouting, 'GOD LOVES US ALWAYS! GOD IS AWESOME.' But I like to be told by the little blessings that descend upon me every day that He loves me.
And as far as testing goes... If we are tested because of a difficulty it doesn't mean the God is standing there watching us with a keen, critical eye, and that if we fail we will be scolded and reprimended and everything. In my experiences with children's sports, the lads get loved more if they fail in winning the game, because they tried their best and are in need of comfort and support. I feel fairly sure that when one fails a test that a hardship puts upon them, God is even gentler in dealing with them, because they are most likely in need of that comfort and support. Nobody likes to fail.
Alas, I think we are the Devil's primary targets in this 'war.' Which would hurt a father more: To be beaten about himself by the enemy, or see his children beaten about? Yes, the Devil picks on us, because he knows what pain it inflicts upon God.
But I'm still not altogether certain of what you mean by a spiritual world, though I understand what point you are making by it.
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 25, 2004 15:40:03 GMT -5
Yes, indeed, it is very difficult for one to contribute too much to a debate, but it isn't hard to contribute too little. I am attempting to discern whether I am adding anything to the discussion or whether I am upsetting people because of my views and beliefs, or appear as if I am imposing those same beliefs on those I am debating with. It seems that I have mainly inspired the thread 'Protestants vs. Catholics,' which frightens me, namely because of the 'vs.' It has the potential of turning into certain parts of Northern Ireland you might stumble upon. Really, when was there competition between the two religions, or rather, when should there have been competition? It has never led to anything good in the past; I wonder if it would lead to good now. But, as you have admitted of yourself, Dragoneyes, I am off-topic, and I think I shall also take my leave.
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Post by Nurumaiel on Sept 25, 2004 12:39:20 GMT -5
Istawen,
With all respect, I must confess that I don't quite understand what you're attempting to say with talking about Job. Are you trying to say that God does test people through suffering, or...?
If the former, indeed, it's more than likely so. But how do we know if the suffering is specifically to test us or if we're just tested anyhow because it's hard.
I understand your first point, but I don't understand what you mean by the second:
I do hope you won't mind explaining what you mean by it.
Really, I must let myself step gracefully out of this debate, for I don't feel as if I am contributing much. Perhaps I am wholly wrong on that, but nevertheless I don't feel that way. I feel that at best (or, more appropriately, worst, oh yes, certainly worst) I am putting people on their guard and sounding like I'm preaching. Oh, and the laundry suffers, as do the birds.
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