Braveheart, a film by and with Mel Gibson

[Dragoneyes]

Allow me some indignant spluttering here. All that the Irish suffered at the hands of the English?

Well, they've seemed to have got their own back a bit more recently *coughcoughIRAcough*

Sorry, I can be a little too patriotic at times.

Am I the only English person here? We're not conquering, Joan-burning bastards all of the time! I swear!

You just have to make sure that you don't do anything we won't like.

[Nurumaiel]

As far as the IRA goes... it's well and good to be a rebel, as long as terrorist attacks don't come along. I detest it then, even if it is 'getting back,' and I detest revenge in any form. 'Getting their own back,' however, would be all right, considering that the land belonged to them in the first place.

The Irish did suffer at the hands of the English, it must be admitted. The Great Famine in the 1840's is a good example of how the Irish suffered by the British Goverment. For an account on that incident, The Great Hunger by Cecil Woodham-Smith is excellent. It isn't in the least biased (I could detect no hint of, 'The poor, wonderful Irish oppressed and murdered by those cruel English monsters.'); in fact I cringed several times when the Irish's own faults were pointed out.

But the English weren't the only ones to make the Irish suffer. Also around the time of the Great Famine when so many Irish were arriving in the States, the Americans were quite unfair to them. The main thing that inspired people to act unfairly towards the Irish, it seems, was the fact that they were Catholics. Americans in earlier days referred to the Irish as 'Popish snakes.'

Too patriotic? Well, I sympathize, dearie. I'm entirely too loyal to Ireland, I think, and I hate to think that there are wicked Irish people, and when I hear of a wicked Irish person I run about ardently declaring that he couldn't have really been Irish; he must have been an imposter! I try desperately, however, to let the fact that the Irish aren't entirely unerring be before me, and not think they're perfect in all ways.

And never fear, the English aren't awful monsters... all of the time! They have done wrongs, it must be admitted, as most other countries have at some time or other. Must I, with the fact before me that the Irish aren't perfect, be so humbled as to be compelled to admit that many Irish people are most unfair to the English as they reflect on past misdeeds without taking into account the here and now? I personally believe that Ireland wouldn't have become half the country it is now if it hadn't been for what the English did for (and to, admittedly) them. If the English are monsters, I'm a bit of a monster myself, for I have (though only to the smallest degree) English blood in me. Folk from Kent, to be precise. But, dearie, you brought up the subject of the English in your post defending them. Only teasing, of course. I love to discuss the subject (patriotic discussions are much fun, even if the patriots are from different countries that often opposed each other), and....

since this is way off topic, maybe you'd be interested in carrying on the conversation by PM? I've heard enough of the Irish side of the story to fill me up for years to come, but I've never heard anything from the English standpoint, and I'd be quite interested to. Perhaps while we're at it we could think of those long, wintery days gone by. Tell me... does the word 'winter' still thrill you?

[BKnight]

Guys, guys, this is starting to be more of a political fight in the senate than the fair debate of a movie. So, stop jumping at each other throats, right?
If we should remember only the bad things about one nation... we would get nowhere. I mean, yeah, the english killed Wallace and Joan (and I blame them for that) but on the other side they are the only nation that stood against the might of the Whermacht and its Blitzkrieg (with a little geographical help) and do not forget that Tolkien, Orlando B., Sir McKellen are english.
The french stood agains the SPQR (aka romans) but failed to keep even their capital in 1941. And the germans, yeah they kinda started two world wars, but I bow before their technology and their methodical mind.
Okay, I hope this will be the last of the political posts here.

[A Fiddler]

Do not fear, Sir BKnight. For my part, at least, I think the two young ladies were being very civil towards each other (perhaps one or the other contemplated jumping at the other's throat, but I don't think it ever actually occured), and I believe more intrigued in learning about the other's history than renewing old hatred. I happen to know, also, that they took the conversation to PM, as they must admit it was off-topic, and they had a very polite (dare I say friendly?) conversation on the subject, bridging the gaps between the English and the Irish rather than destroying them, and then speaking of days gone by when they wrote a very wonderful story together and with some others.

All has ended happily, and being Irish myself let me say that it wouldn't be as wonderful a country as it is if it hadn't been for England ('tis always better to reflect on what good the enemy has done rather than what bad; makes you a decenter fellow yourself). I've some English blood myself, you know, and every Englishman I've met has been very decent (though I'm not going to praise Cromwell, nor Elizabeth I).

Settled, then, that these two young ladies are at least companionable acquaintances, if not the greatest of friends (for they know each other not very well), and that I do not believe they were very aggressive towards each other in the first place, we may leave aside any discussions of 'politics,' or anything that might be related, and continue on with our discussions on the film as a film, and not for any feelings of hate or love it may stir up.

Political discussions may be brought to PM, and hopefully discussed civilly, and with open minds and also with ideas of friendship rather than hating the one because of a country's rights or wrongs. Let these two young ladies be an example to you, all listening. They behaved most decently.

Let discussions on the film continue on.

Scots wha hae wi' Wallace bled....

(Appreciate my efforts, Sir BKnight, to support your cause of discussing film and not country; but, little men and women, remain loyal to your country nevertheless... loyalty does not mean hate for an ancient enemy.)

[BKnight]

Before we return to the discussion of the film, let me say some words.
Fiddler, although I was joking with the throats remark, I cannot help but notice that the your ideas, thoughts and writing style are very mature. I could even go as far as to guess that somebody iportant, or at least with a great word on the site's management just visited us. I won't begin here by sharing and cuting all the points that made me think that, but there's a very funny fact: do u know how I felt? Like a hobbit speaking with a vala. I'm not joking and I'm not ironic, and finally but not least I agree with u Fiddler.