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Post by Elentari on Oct 5, 2004 15:19:00 GMT -5
Ah, but Nilly, it does say in the Bible that homosexuality is wrong, the act of it at least. As I said before, having homosexual feelings is never mentioned in the Bible as being wrong, but it definately says that acting on those feelings of homosexuality is forbidden. I can't quite remember where it says it... *looks it up* Ah, here it is: Just on the animal thing from earlier, it also says: | tari
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 5, 2004 15:46:40 GMT -5
Did you read that link? Does the bible condemn homosexuality? Read and think. www.theturning.org/folder/samesex.htmlOh, well clearly God wants us to slaughter them all. And I found this pretty interesting- "First of all, the Holiness Code of Leviticus was written primarily as a ritual manual for Israel's priests. Christians today are not bound by the rules and rituals described in Leviticus. (Galatians 3:22-25) If Christians today insist on using this passage to condemn homosexuality, then it can only be assumed that they are also bound by the other rules and rituals described in Leviticus. Among other things, the Holiness Code of Leviticus prohibits: Sexual intercourse during a women's menstrual cycle Tattoos Wearing certain types jewelry Eating rare meat Wearing clothing made from a blended textiles (cotton-polyester blends) Cross-breeding livestock Sowing a field with mixed seed Eating or touching the dead flesh of pigs, rabbits, & some forms of seafood Men cutting their hair or shaving their beards The Holiness Code also endorses polygamy and requires Saturday to be reserved as the Sabbath. Obviously, it is unfair to use these passages to condemn homosexuality, while ignoring the fact that most Christians do not follow the rest of the rules and rituals outlined in the Holiness Code of Leviticus. It should also be noted that the word abomination was translated from the Hebrew word toevah and means something found detestable by God because it is unclean, disloyal, or unjust. The term abomination is generally associated with idolatry and the Canaanite religious practice of cult prostitution (Ezekiel). Given toevah's strong association with cult prostitution it is unlikely to apply to loving responsible homosexual relationships. " Source- www.gaysouthafrica.org.za/homosexuality/bible.asp*winks at Nilly.* Well said earlier btw hun. If any of you are thinking about bringing up Sodom, please read up on it before posting. Thanks.
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Post by Elentari on Oct 5, 2004 16:03:48 GMT -5
Ok then, how about this: It goes against the physical design of the human body. If anal sex is what we were designed for, why don't all male-female couples do that instead of normal sex? | tari
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 5, 2004 16:26:11 GMT -5
Well for one thing, it doesn't go against the design on the human body. For another, most male-female couples have had or do have anal sex. It started out as a way of having sex without the risk of pregnancy. Animals do it, and we are animals are we not? You can read about it in historical terms, from the times before anyone really cared for men to be lovers. It caused a lot less fuss for men to sleep with men than for a man to sleep with a woman out of wedlock. So in conclusion, I'll point out that it's not unnatural at all, why would you think it was? Cause sex is meant for procreation? Well then you may as well argue that protected sex is sinful. Plus, from their point of view, sex with a female would be unnatural.
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Post by GaladrielOlden on Oct 5, 2004 16:58:46 GMT -5
Ok then, how about this: It goes against the physical design of the human body. If anal sex is what we were designed for, why don't all male-female couples do that instead of normal sex? | tari Thinking of it that way, a hell of a lot of things we do are against our design. For example.. maybe we shouldn't be online because it's against the designs of our bodies. After all, we weren't born with modems and internet acess built in somewhere on our bodies. -Menelien
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Post by Istawen Aeros on Oct 5, 2004 20:56:43 GMT -5
I'm going to bring up Sodom for one reason. Why? They were destroyed. The entire town was destroyed by God. Why? Because of their abominations. Because they had mob rapes (Lot's daughters) and because of their sexuality. That is terrifying to me. An entire town was destroyed because of that. God created Adam. Did He create James? No. He created Eve. Male and Female He created them. And, yes, I'm sure you'll say that He created Eve to become the mother of this earth. But, to me, the fact that He created a woman is very telling. On a historical note, nations have fallen when they have become sexually immoral (both heterosexually and homosexually and any other sexually). The Medes is one example: their men began to dress as women (forgive me if this is not the point, but I have seen gay men who act extremely womanish) and they fell. Then there is Babylon. And of course Sodom and Gamorrah. I would also like to point out that a man being called a woman has been considerred an insult for a long time. Gay men do not act manly. There is something wrong with that. I do not hate homosexuals. However, I think that what they do is wrong. How does this make me a homophobe? I neither fear them, nor do I hate them. Lossie, you call us Christians bigots. Are you yourself not being bigoted when you call our disagreement bigotry? I say, "I think homosexuality is wrong but I do not hate homosexuals." You say, "You bigot! You do not like homosexuality! You say it's wrong. You are a homophobe spreading her bigoted lies around." Basically you are calling my (Christian) disagreement wrong. Why can I not disagree without being called a bigot or a homosexual hater or a homophobe? Does this mean that I hate all thieves and am being a bigot when I say that thievery is wrong? It almost seems as if you are bullying me to agree with you. Oh. And it's not just Leviticus. It's Romans too. Romans 1Is this the what? Fourth edit? I dunno.. I've noticed during the course of this thread that since Leviticus forbids homosexuality with other things such as food and that that food is now "okay" so Homosexuality is okay. Well, still have the Law -- the reason that that food is okay is because God made it okay. He didn't mention anything about homosexuality.
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Wren
Meldielto
Not all who wander are lost
Posts: 170
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Post by Wren on Oct 6, 2004 2:32:58 GMT -5
I do know how it feels to be judged by my "so-called" Christian peers. My Bible study teacher once mentioned how women shouldn't divorce. But if they do divorce they should never remarry. Well, in her eyes, I'm sure I've sinned on both accounts. And I did feel very judged, wrongly judged for that matter. But its not the same thing. Sin is sin. Its that simple. I will not be a wishy washy Christian who doesn't take a stand for what she believes in. As Istawen already mentioned the twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are prime examples of God's views on how wrong homosexuality really is. The Bible talks about truth dwelling in the heart of man. And even when he tries to run away from it, its still there. I know sodomy is wrong. The truth is there for anyone who wants to find it. Here's my link for what the Bible says about homosexuality: www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1302Homosexual's do get saved. And by the grace of God they leave that lifestyle behind.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 6, 2004 7:12:25 GMT -5
Well I thought that this seemed a pretty good way of explaining Sodom- Another interesting version- www.christiangays.com/articles/sodom.shtmlAs for God created Adam; From here- epistle.us/articles/responses.htmlMore food for thought - www.gaysouthafrica.org.za/homosexuality/bible.aspepistle.us/homobible.html Here you can read about their views on Sodom and Leviticus. Cause I'm sure you'll want to read all that. In regards to your insult at me saying you are wrong, it's not that I don't understand where you're coming from, it's that you claim to have no problem with gay people, as long as they go against what they are and don't act as they are. They are loved and can be gay as long as they don't practice it, that's the feeling I've received a lot. What I don't understand, is why it's a sin. I simply do not understand how you can say that their very nature is wrong. You don't hate them, but what they do is wrong. Why is it? Because it was written thousands of years ago? If this is what you believe then live your life as it says you should in relevance to those times. It doesn't make sense for certain things to change, but for other more important things to become worse. I am sorry if I'm offending you, it's only because you are offending me with what I see as cloaked intolerance and injustice. From my point of view, we should all be accepting of homosexuals full stop, not say all this about having no problem with them as long as they don't do what makes the problem.
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Post by Elentari on Oct 6, 2004 7:57:52 GMT -5
I believe that people can get divorced if they've tried everything to fix their relationship. The one who wanted the divorce should notget remarried, but the person who submitted to their partner's want of divorce should be allowed to remarry because it was not their fault. | tari
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Post by GaladrielOlden on Oct 6, 2004 8:05:40 GMT -5
I am all for gay people doing what they want;). but I think you're taking it a bit too far, no offence. That's like someone who believes murder to be an okay way of releasing your agression telling everybody who "doesn't like" murderers that they're bigoted against murderers and that it's prejudice. Of course, that's a lot more extreme, from my perspective at least, but it's pretty much the way what you're saying comes across.
-Menelien
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 6, 2004 9:01:56 GMT -5
I see what you mean, and it's a reasonable point, even if I do think Imzy's comparision to thieves was more appropriate. I just don't get how it makes sense (and please please clear it up for me if you can) to say you have nothing against gays, but what they do is wrong. How can we judge it like this?
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Post by Istawen Aeros on Oct 6, 2004 9:38:54 GMT -5
What a person is, and what a person does, are two very different things. Yeah, I don't like it that my friend had an affair, but guess what? I don't hate her. (This is purely for example, btw...this did not happen.)
You are going to become upset at me for this, but the only reason you are making such a big deal out of this is because it's homosexuality. It's not murder, it's not thievery, it's homosexuality. That's the only difference -- which is no difference at all. I view all three as sin, yet for some reason I'm a homophobe, but not a murderphobe or a thief-phobe.
I think the act is wrong. Where have I said that they shouldn't be allowed to practice it?
Creation is done. God created two people: Adam and Eve. Besides, even if He was busy creating more people, practicing homosexuality and whatever else is a choice. Just like have sex with a member of the opposite sex is a choice. Just like having abortion is a choice. This is where free will comes in, I think.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 6, 2004 9:53:02 GMT -5
Lol, for some reason I thought you were going to say "the only reason you are making such a big deal out of this is because you're clearly gay" Hahaha But it doesn't seem that we're going to get much further than this. You think that they are in the same level as murderers and theives because they sin, but have no problem with them as people. And I think that we should move on from this idea of it as sin because it discriminates against people who do no harm to others, unlike thieves or murderers. Is this reasonably accurate? Cause that's what I understand of the situation, but could be wrong.
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Post by Istawen Aeros on Oct 6, 2004 10:37:01 GMT -5
So sin equals harm to others? (duh...I talked about this with you before... ) We have a disagreement on the meaning of sin: you define it as harm to others, I define it as a breaking of God's law. Thus, you will never understand my analogy that homosexuality to thievery. Just on a parting note: I am a Christian,you are not. Homosexuality is a sin. Just because the Bible was written over a thousand years ago doesn't change that. God does not change. The age of something doesn't make it any less true. And for the umpteenth time, I don't hate gays or lesbians.
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Post by Lossentilien on Oct 6, 2004 14:12:27 GMT -5
No, murder and thievery causes harm to others, gay sex (unless it's rape) does not. That was my point. As for the whole God does not change and the age of something doesn't make it less true, in biblical terms, fine, I'm not going to bother trying to find examples of where this has changed, cause the whole shellfish thing was mentioned above. But in historical terms it was thought of as evil to be pagan. Now this isn't, by most people, viewed the same as it was in the times of witch burnings. But I can see you don't understand my point of view, and obviously I can't comprehend yours, and as no one has explained it, I guess we should leave it here. Unless anyone has anything they want to add or clear up? I'd be happy to listen.
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